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[Music]

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explore the bazaars are your e-ticket

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ride into the world of the paranoid

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strap yourself even as we traverse the

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universe exploring the unexplained UFO s

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ghosts Lost Worlds cryptozoology waters

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as well as other dimensions it's time to

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take back the night now your

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electrifying hosts of exploring the

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Tim watch where you're going you just

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got ectoplasm on the latest copy of

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psychic news from England yeah two great

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tastes that go great together well looks

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like we're going to delve into two hot

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topics this week UFOs and the spirit

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world and I'm sure somewhere they will

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come together so Tim how you been doing

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out there in the Corn Belt Accord Belt

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that's that's a little bit further north

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of where I live it's a little little

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Hillier down around here in Southwestern

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Indiana now you know we're at what I

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where I grew up which was in north

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central Indiana Tim I mean that

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definitely was a corner belt I mean you

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could you could stand on my front porch

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and see all the way into Illinois it was

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not like that kind of like the fields of

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dreams very much so very much so indeed

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so what have you been up to well I have

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been reading an absolutely fantastic new

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book that just been released from inner

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light global communications hmm what's

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that title again

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yes winged Wanderers weird wing weird

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wing one but I can't say that fine I

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didn't expect you to say it five times

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so that's our that's our latest release

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and we're just sending out review copies

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and

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getting all kinds of a positive feedback

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I think people really like that it's

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really a strange and bizarre just like

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our show yes and speaking of exploring

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the bizarre Tim who do we have on as our

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special guest tonight

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oh well Tim we and you know as always we

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we have just the best guest here on

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exploring the bazaar and so oh with us

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tonight is Shannon Taggart now Shannon

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is a photographer based in a Brooklyn

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New York not too far from a YouTube her

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photographs have been exhibited and

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featured internationally included in

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time New York Times Magazine discovered

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Newsweek you know her work has been

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recognized by Nikon Magnum photos and

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the American photography let's see from

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2014 and 2016 she was scholar and artist

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in residence at the Morton a morbid

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enemy that's harder than weird winged

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wonders

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it is it is Museum in New York now right

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now she is putting together a book that

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it's it's still in the process or I

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guess this has been a process has been

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going on for quite a while its title is

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seance spiritualist ritual and the

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search for active plasm and hopefully it

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if her funding sources come through

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she'll be able to get this out soon

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because I know I can't wait to read this

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book I've seen some of her photographs

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at various other locations and this

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should be an absolutely fantastic look

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to him so now our other guest with us

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tonight is less the less now less is the

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graduate of the University of Vermont

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with a Bachelor of Science in Business

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Administration now beginning in

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September 1970 he served in the US Army

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as a field artillery officer and he

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joined MUFON in 1991 and has held the

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following positions field investigator

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training

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Nader for field investigators the

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assistant state director in Northern

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California chairman of the AE RC

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abduction experience or Research

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Committee for those who don't know that

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and team leader of the AR T abduction

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response team now les founded in 1994

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Roy co-founded opus the organization for

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paranormal understanding and support and

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the mission of opus is to educate and

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support people having unusual anomalous

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personal experiences such experiences

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may include extraordinary states of

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consciousness spiritual or

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parapsychological phenomena or even

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close encounters with non-human entities

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and/or UFO activity so we've got a

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really well-rounded show tonight I was

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gonna say I'm putting it with Tina for

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an extra hour right now because it looks

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like it's there's a lot of information

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out here that we we've got to just grab

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on to you know I've always been

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fascinated Shanon by the seances and and

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mysticism and medium ship we've we've

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published a couple of books on the the

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topic thirty years among the dead we

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also have a book called dark seance

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about the Devonport brothers and you

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know with the UFOs we have the cases

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where UFOs of land and left scorched

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earth behind and ripped up the the soil

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and and left other tidbits of physical

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evidence but in the spiritualist field

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their spiritualist movement we have the

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very strange substance known as

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ectoplasm now Shannon are you a

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spiritualist um I don't really I kind of

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classify myself as and I mean the

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closest thing I guess I would label

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myself as a as a 14 so I'm I'm so

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yeah let's hear it for Charles so um

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that said I I'm constantly questioning

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my experiences and what's happening and

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so um but I am very open to spiritualism

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and I've had a lot of very strange

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interesting experiences I've had

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readings and healings and I mean every

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every kind of experience spiritualism

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offers I've pretty much engaged with and

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I have found a lot of a lot - a lot

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there to explore and a lot of true

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mystery and strange high strangeness so

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yeah that I guess that would have been

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to camp Lilydale

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and to camp at Chesterfield and Tim

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weren't you raised around one of the

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spiritualist camps there

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oh yes yes I lived in the same county as

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a camp Chesterfield and you know when

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when I got older and realized it was

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there went there a number of times and

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and had a chance to visit Lilydale at

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least once yeah I I know of course the

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the spiritualist movement and maybe a

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channel you could take yourself back to

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when it started maybe - the Fox sisters

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if not before yes so in 1848 in upstate

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New York two young girls Kate and

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Margaret Fox said they were in

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communication with the spirit of a man

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who was buried beneath their home and

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started communicating with this spirit

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with the formal like letter coded

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wrapping and the neighbors started to

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come over and you know see this

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phenomena and and soon their older

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sister was taking them to Rochester New

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York which was the the closest city to

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where they were and they were having

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public seances and they didn't set out

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to start a movement that you know spread

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across the Western world and became a

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religion and a philosophy

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they it was kind of like an accidental

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founding it kind of took took you know

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set afire

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by this small act by these young girls

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I'm curious Shannon before we really get

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too much into your your photography with

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the Spiritualist and the mediums I want

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to know a little bit more about yourself

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and how you got involved interested in

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photography in the first place I got

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interested in photography when I was in

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high school and it's funny because the

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the moment that I got interested in

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photography around that very same time

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my cousin went to Lilydale New York and

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had her and she went to a message

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service and so I grew up in Buffalo New

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York which is about an hour away from

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Lilydale and the these message services

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in Lilly Dell you go into the woods and

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there's benches and you don't fill out

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your name or anything they're anonymous

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and the mediums stand on the front and

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they pick people out for short to give

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them short messages and my cousin was

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chosen and the medium revealed details

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about my grandfather's death that proved

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to be true and proved to be this weird

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story about how he died and it was kind

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of like a family secret and so she came

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back and told our family what they had

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told her and it sent shockwaves you know

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through my entire family and everyone

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was you know just really shocked by how

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this woman could have known this and so

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i me being and you know high school at

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this time i was thinking how could

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somebody possibly know that it became so

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intrigued but i didn't pursue it until

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years later when i became a professional

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photographer I was working as a

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photojournalist and I decided to begin a

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project that explored spiritualism or

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now

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okay so sisters sort of started that off

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but we also I remember in this book on

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the the Davenport brothers they were

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known at the time course very

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controversial as the best physical

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mediums they would just sit in a

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a spirit cabinet with the the doors

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locked in their hands tied and all of a

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sudden the light of the lights that were

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put out in the room or at least dimmed

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and musical instruments would would

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float above their head it would come out

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of the top of the cabinet and and

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rummage around the the room and play

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melodies and bang numbers and then of

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course the seance would be over and they

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would open the spiritualist cabinet and

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there would be the Davenport brothers

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with their their hands still the tide so

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that no collusion or fraud it could be

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said to have occurred of course this is

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not necessarily the the case a lot of

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mediums in the early days were caught

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with their ectoplasm down I guess

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so to speak but there was also wasn't

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there two sisters who painted spirit

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photos yes the Beng sisters injustice

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more bang for your buck that's yes and

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the Davenport brothers I think are truly

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fascinating and I've to write something

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about them in my in my in the text of my

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book because they are a great example of

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the ambiguity that is embedded in

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spiritualism you know they refuse to

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call themselves magicians or mediums

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they allowed the audience to decide that

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and this would you know they would

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travel around the world their spirit

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cabinet act was one of the most popular

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shows they had a run for their lives on

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several occasions they got heat up one

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woman fell down from the balcony I think

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in the in Philadelphia the the police

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were called on a number of occasions and

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they had a slink out of town I think in

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Australia you know at the before the

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crack of dawn so some of these early a

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spiritualist were had a lot of pressure

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on them not unlike the UFO contactees

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and abductees of today I

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I would say okay so what is for the

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record ectoplasm

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so ectoplasm is a a spiritualist it's a

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substance it's kind of like a holy

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substance for a spiritualist that

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represents the merging of the spiritual

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and material realms so it's a substance

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like it's a paradoxical substance that

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is both spiritual and material at the

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same time and it usually emerges in the

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classic form emerges from the body of

275
00:14:40,050 --> 00:14:35,529
the medium and becomes you know starts

276
00:14:42,389 --> 00:14:40,060
out thin and then thickens and takes

277
00:14:44,730 --> 00:14:42,399
shape and takes form and in some of the

278
00:14:48,300 --> 00:14:44,740
old spirit images you'll see it looks

279
00:14:51,809 --> 00:14:48,310
like cheesecloth or linen or you know

280
00:14:54,780 --> 00:14:51,819
with two-dimensional faces embedded

281
00:14:58,860 --> 00:14:54,790
within it and it's a very controversial

282
00:15:01,740 --> 00:14:58,870
topic and controversial substance you

283
00:15:03,720 --> 00:15:01,750
know within spiritualism and there's

284
00:15:06,809 --> 00:15:03,730
also different definitions for it some

285
00:15:08,670 --> 00:15:06,819
people say you know it's an it's a

286
00:15:11,720 --> 00:15:08,680
spiritual ether it's an energy can

287
00:15:15,389 --> 00:15:11,730
change atmosphere hypnotic perceptions

288
00:15:19,199 --> 00:15:15,399
temperature others say no it's only when

289
00:15:21,780 --> 00:15:19,209
it's in that white objective stream like

290
00:15:23,689 --> 00:15:21,790
form that everybody can see I find

291
00:15:25,710 --> 00:15:23,699
there's some fluidity to the term

292
00:15:27,840 --> 00:15:25,720
depending on what seance room you're in

293
00:15:29,069 --> 00:15:27,850
you're not really sure what kind of

294
00:15:32,329 --> 00:15:29,079
active pleasant they're talking about

295
00:15:35,610 --> 00:15:32,339
and so I found that fascinating as well

296
00:15:38,519 --> 00:15:35,620
yeah they actually they they made fun of

297
00:15:41,370 --> 00:15:38,529
the whole premise of ectoplasm and the

298
00:15:43,500 --> 00:15:41,380
original Ghostbusters music the movie

299
00:15:44,519 --> 00:15:43,510
they called it slime but I mean

300
00:15:46,290 --> 00:15:44,529
basically that's what they were

301
00:15:51,809 --> 00:15:46,300
referring to that was supposed to be

302
00:15:53,579 --> 00:15:51,819
ectoplasm yes and I always I you know

303
00:15:57,240 --> 00:15:53,589
when I'm giving my lectures and showing

304
00:15:58,889 --> 00:15:57,250
my images I always start off with you

305
00:16:00,329 --> 00:15:58,899
know the first time I heard the term

306
00:16:03,389 --> 00:16:00,339
ectoplasm was through the movie

307
00:16:05,160 --> 00:16:03,399
ghostbusters and I think many people

308
00:16:06,150 --> 00:16:05,170
that's why they're familiar with the

309
00:16:09,000 --> 00:16:06,160
word

310
00:16:09,890 --> 00:16:09,010
and that is because because dan aykroyd

311
00:16:12,960 --> 00:16:09,900
is actually a fourth-generation

312
00:16:15,750 --> 00:16:12,970
spiritualist and he's drawing the term

313
00:16:18,210 --> 00:16:15,760
you know from the actual practice and

314
00:16:21,090 --> 00:16:18,220
and using it in in the film but he's

315
00:16:23,510 --> 00:16:21,100
drawing it from spiritualist ritual yeah

316
00:16:25,620 --> 00:16:23,520
they used to have his grandparents had

317
00:16:27,840 --> 00:16:25,630
seances right in the parlor room up

318
00:16:30,210 --> 00:16:27,850
there in Canada where he lived and his

319
00:16:33,330 --> 00:16:30,220
his father I think six or seven years

320
00:16:37,260 --> 00:16:33,340
ago wrote a very good book on the

321
00:16:38,640 --> 00:16:37,270
history of spiritualism yes yes and Dan

322
00:16:41,100 --> 00:16:38,650
Aykroyd is actually going to contribute

323
00:16:43,470 --> 00:16:41,110
the foreword to my book which is cited

324
00:16:46,350 --> 00:16:43,480
absolutely absolutely excellent now we

325
00:16:49,590 --> 00:16:46,360
have a really wild a synchronicity that

326
00:16:52,320 --> 00:16:49,600
took place that involves the Blues

327
00:16:53,970 --> 00:16:52,330
Brothers it's too long to go to go into

328
00:16:55,740 --> 00:16:53,980
and you're gonna get you guys are the

329
00:16:59,250 --> 00:16:55,750
guests on the show and we have repeated

330
00:17:02,730 --> 00:16:59,260
and on the air before but really wild

331
00:17:06,030 --> 00:17:02,740
just you know a totally something out of

332
00:17:09,210 --> 00:17:06,040
a philip k dick Bladerunner book Total

333
00:17:11,400 --> 00:17:09,220
Recall you know so now okay now the

334
00:17:15,240 --> 00:17:11,410
Spurs most movement even though it

335
00:17:19,530 --> 00:17:15,250
started in the the mid 19th century is

336
00:17:24,410 --> 00:17:19,540
still around today how big was it at its

337
00:17:27,000 --> 00:17:24,420
at its peak the estimates very

338
00:17:30,960 --> 00:17:27,010
classically it was said eleven million

339
00:17:33,120 --> 00:17:30,970
in in the United States alone that has

340
00:17:35,430 --> 00:17:33,130
been now there's historians that are

341
00:17:38,370 --> 00:17:35,440
saying you know was probably more less

342
00:17:41,940 --> 00:17:38,380
than four million but wait at its peak

343
00:17:43,950 --> 00:17:41,950
spiritualism truly it was challenged

344
00:17:45,840 --> 00:17:43,960
Christianity for the most popular

345
00:17:48,540 --> 00:17:45,850
religion I mean it was incredibly

346
00:17:50,520 --> 00:17:48,550
popular and it actually incorporates

347
00:17:52,040 --> 00:17:50,530
Christianity that that's one thing I

348
00:17:54,060 --> 00:17:52,050
never really liked too much about

349
00:17:58,050 --> 00:17:54,070
spiritualism if you went to a

350
00:18:02,460 --> 00:17:58,060
spiritualist service like it with

351
00:18:06,080 --> 00:18:02,470
someone in Florida Cassadaga it was you

352
00:18:09,210 --> 00:18:06,090
know life after death with a lot of

353
00:18:10,860 --> 00:18:09,220
Christianity put in there you know I

354
00:18:12,960 --> 00:18:10,870
mean and they didn't believe in

355
00:18:15,630 --> 00:18:12,970
reincarnation of course now you have

356
00:18:18,940 --> 00:18:15,640
spiritualism and then you have spiritism

357
00:18:21,610 --> 00:18:18,950
which is slightly different

358
00:18:24,669 --> 00:18:21,620
in that they do believe in reincarnation

359
00:18:26,530 --> 00:18:24,679
is some of the other things that the

360
00:18:28,030 --> 00:18:26,540
spiritualist movement don't but a

361
00:18:30,070 --> 00:18:28,040
spiritualist movement was the the

362
00:18:32,980 --> 00:18:30,080
largest and it's still very active in

363
00:18:35,740 --> 00:18:32,990
the in the UK I know I get the the

364
00:18:38,530 --> 00:18:35,750
psychic news that's very glossy magazine

365
00:18:40,480 --> 00:18:38,540
from over there and they list hundreds

366
00:18:43,570 --> 00:18:40,490
and hundreds of churches that are still

367
00:18:46,150 --> 00:18:43,580
very active I hear there are churches in

368
00:18:48,220 --> 00:18:46,160
various parts of the country but there

369
00:18:51,130 --> 00:18:48,230
were a lot of fewer than there were when

370
00:18:55,570 --> 00:18:51,140
I first got involved in the metaphysical

371
00:18:58,419 --> 00:18:55,580
back in the late 60s yes it spiritualism

372
00:19:00,220 --> 00:18:58,429
is definitely more alive in England and

373
00:19:02,919 --> 00:19:00,230
that's why I've actually spent a lot of

374
00:19:07,299 --> 00:19:02,929
time in England photographing their

375
00:19:09,549 --> 00:19:07,309
being and the spirit I would I would

376
00:19:13,169 --> 00:19:09,559
argue that that's the most alive and and

377
00:19:15,700 --> 00:19:13,179
I would say in in Brazil specifically

378
00:19:18,490 --> 00:19:15,710
well there would be more or less the

379
00:19:27,789 --> 00:19:18,500
spirit spiritism in Brazil Allan Kardec

380
00:19:30,520 --> 00:19:27,799
right yes yes and you know and then it

381
00:19:36,840 --> 00:19:30,530
traveled you know from France to Brazil

382
00:19:44,850 --> 00:19:39,280
think we have a spirit coming through

383
00:19:47,140 --> 00:19:44,860
now it was acting a little bit sometimes

384
00:19:52,690 --> 00:19:47,150
switches my mic off so can you hear me

385
00:19:55,060 --> 00:19:52,700
now hear this yeah yeah okay okay so now

386
00:19:59,440 --> 00:19:55,070
okay so you say you spend a lot of time

387
00:20:01,390 --> 00:19:59,450
in the in the you a UK where

388
00:20:03,730 --> 00:20:01,400
spiritualism is a lot more active than

389
00:20:06,010 --> 00:20:03,740
here are you familiar with the the

390
00:20:10,919 --> 00:20:06,020
seances by the group is it's a soul

391
00:20:14,350 --> 00:20:10,929
group the skull group yes yes I actually

392
00:20:16,900 --> 00:20:14,360
recently traveled to Spain where Robin

393
00:20:18,340 --> 00:20:16,910
Foy Robin and Sandra Foy who are the two

394
00:20:21,340 --> 00:20:18,350
of the four members of the skull

395
00:20:22,630 --> 00:20:21,350
experiment you know where they live and

396
00:20:25,510 --> 00:20:22,640
I actually photographed some of the

397
00:20:28,360 --> 00:20:25,520
skull out ports for my book and that was

398
00:20:30,010 --> 00:20:28,370
a really exciting experience and one of

399
00:20:32,380 --> 00:20:30,020
the objects one of my favorite ones that

400
00:20:35,770 --> 00:20:32,390
I was able to photograph was a device

401
00:20:39,850 --> 00:20:35,780
that they they created through the plans

402
00:20:41,260 --> 00:20:39,860
of Thomas Edison gave them plans in the

403
00:20:44,830 --> 00:20:41,270
seance room and then they built this

404
00:20:47,110 --> 00:20:44,840
device it's some trans communication

405
00:20:50,770 --> 00:20:47,120
device I don't I'm drawing a blank on

406
00:20:53,260 --> 00:20:50,780
the exact term of it but it was used you

407
00:20:55,540 --> 00:20:53,270
know for communication and you know they

408
00:20:57,940 --> 00:20:55,550
had coins they I mean they had a variety

409
00:21:00,250 --> 00:20:57,950
of objects that they had gotten yeah

410
00:21:02,770 --> 00:21:00,260
yeah there was a they had what a small

411
00:21:05,110 --> 00:21:02,780
group of maybe ten members that would

412
00:21:08,470 --> 00:21:05,120
meet on a regular basis in somebody's a

413
00:21:10,390 --> 00:21:08,480
darkened basement and they would of

414
00:21:13,030 --> 00:21:10,400
course turn the lights off but they had

415
00:21:15,940 --> 00:21:13,040
all these materializations a very

416
00:21:19,180 --> 00:21:15,950
impressive actually taking place and

417
00:21:22,840 --> 00:21:19,190
they had I guess video recorders on

418
00:21:26,040 --> 00:21:22,850
recording all of the manifestations and

419
00:21:29,740 --> 00:21:26,050
like you say there were airports

420
00:21:32,500 --> 00:21:29,750
involved in the in the seances and of

421
00:21:36,340 --> 00:21:32,510
course airports are really not new when

422
00:21:39,910 --> 00:21:36,350
it comes to mediumship and say us as

423
00:21:42,760 --> 00:21:39,920
they go way back in fact I have seen and

424
00:21:45,930 --> 00:21:42,770
I don't know how honest the mediums were

425
00:21:50,080 --> 00:21:45,940
being here where they would pull out big

426
00:21:52,060 --> 00:21:50,090
jewels and and rubies and whatever from

427
00:21:54,550 --> 00:21:52,070
from their mouth or their ears or their

428
00:21:57,070 --> 00:21:54,560
nose or or whatever and they claimed

429
00:21:59,590 --> 00:21:57,080
that these were materializations from

430
00:22:00,970 --> 00:21:59,600
the the seance world although some

431
00:22:04,890 --> 00:22:00,980
people suspect that they might have been

432
00:22:09,190 --> 00:22:04,900
right off the bottom shelf in Woolworth

433
00:22:13,450 --> 00:22:09,200
be that baby that is is it be that as it

434
00:22:18,070 --> 00:22:13,460
may that Tim in fact didn't you see if

435
00:22:20,980 --> 00:22:18,080
some airports one time well yeah but not

436
00:22:24,460 --> 00:22:20,990
in a not in a seance type of situation

437
00:22:26,220 --> 00:22:24,470
that was a house where a poltergeist was

438
00:22:29,530 --> 00:22:26,230
happening but yeah I mean it was it was

439
00:22:33,550 --> 00:22:29,540
it was a ports it was rocks falling from

440
00:22:35,020 --> 00:22:33,560
the ceiling well that way and then you

441
00:22:36,940 --> 00:22:35,030
would throw the rocket you would mark

442
00:22:38,590 --> 00:22:36,950
the rock and throw it outside and it

443
00:22:39,100 --> 00:22:38,600
would come back through the ceiling

444
00:22:40,780 --> 00:22:39,110
again

445
00:22:43,510 --> 00:22:40,790
oh yeah well it was a handful of rocks

446
00:22:44,710 --> 00:22:43,520
and yeah I'd mark them with a magic

447
00:22:46,660 --> 00:22:44,720
marker and through mountain the

448
00:22:48,310 --> 00:22:46,670
cornfield in the

449
00:22:50,590 --> 00:22:48,320
behind the house and then just you know

450
00:22:52,330 --> 00:22:50,600
not even just a few minutes later they

451
00:22:53,770 --> 00:22:52,340
they came back you know you heard of the

452
00:22:56,860 --> 00:22:53,780
cat coming back but this was the rocks

453
00:22:59,220 --> 00:22:56,870
came back well I remember what we

454
00:23:02,530 --> 00:22:59,230
published a book not too long ago called

455
00:23:05,740 --> 00:23:02,540
Diane she came from Venus up Rainbow

456
00:23:11,250 --> 00:23:05,750
Hill and correct me if I'm wrong I

457
00:23:19,030 --> 00:23:15,880
yeah okay anyway she was part of a

458
00:23:22,120 --> 00:23:19,040
spiritualist Church in the late 1940s in

459
00:23:24,670 --> 00:23:22,130
California and and a small group I mean

460
00:23:26,740 --> 00:23:24,680
I think they had 35 or 40 members but

461
00:23:31,660 --> 00:23:26,750
she would have this materialization of

462
00:23:34,360 --> 00:23:31,670
this very attractive spirit entity maybe

463
00:23:38,230 --> 00:23:34,370
six feet tall on a number of occasions

464
00:23:41,020 --> 00:23:38,240
and then as she was receiving messages

465
00:23:43,540 --> 00:23:41,030
on a regular basis about how this woman

466
00:23:45,460 --> 00:23:43,550
was from another dimension on the plane

467
00:23:48,280 --> 00:23:45,470
of Venus anyway we're coming up on her

468
00:23:50,590 --> 00:23:48,290
first break but don't turn that dial and

469
00:23:53,110 --> 00:23:50,600
don't go anywhere and what you're going

470
00:23:55,100 --> 00:23:53,120
to materialize back with us in a few

471
00:24:00,390 --> 00:23:55,110
minutes

472
00:24:03,630 --> 00:24:00,400
exploring the bazaars ours now back to

473
00:24:05,670 --> 00:24:03,640
exploring the bazaar with two of the

474
00:24:09,270 --> 00:24:05,680
most electrifying researchers in the

475
00:24:19,140 --> 00:24:09,280
Paranoid your hosts Timothy beckylyn and

476
00:24:21,270 --> 00:24:19,150
Taylor Swift's back again on explore in

477
00:24:23,910 --> 00:24:21,280
the bazaar and Tim I think it's time

478
00:24:26,520 --> 00:24:23,920
that we bring our other guest in he's

479
00:24:30,780 --> 00:24:26,530
been patiently or impatiently maybe for

480
00:24:33,000 --> 00:24:30,790
those waiting in the wings to get his 15

481
00:24:35,550 --> 00:24:33,010
minutes on the show or it's more than 15

482
00:24:38,790 --> 00:24:35,560
minutes so what do you thank you and

483
00:24:40,620 --> 00:24:38,800
shall we shall we bring him in I you

484
00:24:42,690 --> 00:24:40,630
would be a miss if you didn't ha ha

485
00:24:44,310 --> 00:24:42,700
that's right well les thank you very

486
00:24:46,380 --> 00:24:44,320
much for being with us tonight on

487
00:24:48,450 --> 00:24:46,390
exploring the bazaar well thank you for

488
00:24:50,580 --> 00:24:48,460
having me appreciate it all right so now

489
00:24:53,040 --> 00:24:50,590
here we've been talking in the first

490
00:24:56,160 --> 00:24:53,050
half-hour you know about spiritualism

491
00:25:01,470 --> 00:24:56,170
and and and you know the spirits and

492
00:25:06,420 --> 00:25:01,480
life after death and all that but a lot

493
00:25:11,540 --> 00:25:06,430
of people don't realize that there is

494
00:25:17,520 --> 00:25:11,550
kind of a fine line really between UFOs

495
00:25:21,030 --> 00:25:17,530
the UFO phenomena and ghosts and

496
00:25:23,940 --> 00:25:21,040
hauntings and spiritualism would you

497
00:25:28,980 --> 00:25:23,950
agree with that well tell you what it's

498
00:25:33,210 --> 00:25:28,990
all part of puzzle Universal puzzle that

499
00:25:36,270 --> 00:25:33,220
we experience you know it's we deal with

500
00:25:37,770 --> 00:25:36,280
our reality you know on one level but

501
00:25:41,160 --> 00:25:37,780
then there are other realities there's

502
00:25:44,700 --> 00:25:41,170
other energies there's there's so much

503
00:25:46,800 --> 00:25:44,710
that we don't understand and so yes the

504
00:25:50,730 --> 00:25:46,810
abduction phenomena is certainly one of

505
00:25:55,200 --> 00:25:50,740
the UFOs poltergeist activity is

506
00:25:58,350 --> 00:25:55,210
certainly another and we just truly have

507
00:26:01,980 --> 00:25:58,360
an issue of getting our arms around the

508
00:26:04,410 --> 00:26:01,990
whole the whole process so you know

509
00:26:06,600 --> 00:26:04,420
people ask me all the time you know what

510
00:26:08,250 --> 00:26:06,610
are we dealing with are they

511
00:26:10,680 --> 00:26:08,260
extraterrestrial and they

512
00:26:16,190 --> 00:26:10,690
are the time travelers are the

513
00:26:18,750 --> 00:26:16,200
inter-dimensional or is it the military

514
00:26:20,670 --> 00:26:18,760
well you know what I I believe it's all

515
00:26:25,680 --> 00:26:20,680
the above it certainly don't be all the

516
00:26:28,550 --> 00:26:25,690
above and and we we just you know are

517
00:26:32,790 --> 00:26:28,560
living in our own little box here and

518
00:26:38,040 --> 00:26:32,800
there's a whole lot going on around us

519
00:26:43,590 --> 00:26:38,050
that is is so unique so so incredible

520
00:26:48,780 --> 00:26:43,600
that it's it's paranormal well you know

521
00:26:52,290 --> 00:26:48,790
dr. Leo sprinkle has has said that when

522
00:26:54,210 --> 00:26:52,300
he has conducted you know like a

523
00:26:56,520 --> 00:26:54,220
hypnotic sessions or even just you know

524
00:27:01,710 --> 00:26:56,530
talking to experiencers that that he's

525
00:27:03,330 --> 00:27:01,720
been told that whatever intelligence you

526
00:27:07,790 --> 00:27:03,340
know this is that they've had

527
00:27:12,750 --> 00:27:07,800
experiences with has told them that they

528
00:27:13,950 --> 00:27:12,760
travel not through linear space as you

529
00:27:16,050 --> 00:27:13,960
know as we think of you know like a

530
00:27:20,520 --> 00:27:16,060
conventional spaceship you know rocket

531
00:27:23,040 --> 00:27:20,530
flying through space but actually at one

532
00:27:24,870 --> 00:27:23,050
point actually travels through what we

533
00:27:28,080 --> 00:27:24,880
would call you know the spirit world or

534
00:27:31,710 --> 00:27:28,090
the astral world and that some of these

535
00:27:33,930 --> 00:27:31,720
experiences said that while they were on

536
00:27:37,620 --> 00:27:33,940
board these crafts that they actually

537
00:27:40,110 --> 00:27:37,630
had visitations from their loved ones

538
00:27:42,060 --> 00:27:40,120
who have passed on and I just always

539
00:27:46,190 --> 00:27:42,070
found that just a fascinating the

540
00:27:49,260 --> 00:27:46,200
concept yeah you know I think that

541
00:27:52,470 --> 00:27:49,270
during these experiences that people

542
00:27:53,580 --> 00:27:52,480
have there there's so many different you

543
00:27:56,310 --> 00:27:53,590
know you have a spiritual awakening

544
00:28:00,600 --> 00:27:56,320
Kundalini awakening things of that

545
00:28:02,730 --> 00:28:00,610
nature that occur and and so being on

546
00:28:06,110 --> 00:28:02,740
board a craft for instance and and

547
00:28:09,810 --> 00:28:06,120
seeing you know someone that's passed on

548
00:28:11,070 --> 00:28:09,820
we're not sure one of the fascinating

549
00:28:15,590 --> 00:28:11,080
things I don't know if I'm gonna have

550
00:28:19,110 --> 00:28:15,600
time to get to it is that MUFON actually

551
00:28:21,599 --> 00:28:19,120
mutual UFO network actually funded a

552
00:28:24,269 --> 00:28:21,609
study that I coordinated

553
00:28:25,320 --> 00:28:24,279
and we took 72 people that felt that

554
00:28:29,190 --> 00:28:25,330
they had been abducted

555
00:28:33,119 --> 00:28:29,200
and 50 54 people that were a control

556
00:28:38,570 --> 00:28:33,129
group and what we found was that these

557
00:28:44,239 --> 00:28:38,580
people did not were not a fantasy prone

558
00:28:47,430 --> 00:28:44,249
they they weren't crazy and and that

559
00:28:49,139 --> 00:28:47,440
there was there was some stressors early

560
00:28:52,109 --> 00:28:49,149
on in their life that caused them to

561
00:28:53,700 --> 00:28:52,119
open up and also cause their temporal

562
00:28:56,399 --> 00:28:53,710
lobe activity to be a little bit

563
00:28:58,979 --> 00:28:56,409
different than the control group and we

564
00:29:02,549 --> 00:28:58,989
want to do another study to kind of go

565
00:29:06,269 --> 00:29:02,559
further into that area but getting back

566
00:29:10,279 --> 00:29:06,279
to where you were coming from we can the

567
00:29:12,810 --> 00:29:10,289
physics that we understand now is is

568
00:29:16,950 --> 00:29:12,820
it's not it's not right

569
00:29:19,739 --> 00:29:16,960
in order for these entities to come here

570
00:29:22,169 --> 00:29:19,749
from wherever they're coming from it's

571
00:29:24,060 --> 00:29:22,179
there's a new physics that's that's out

572
00:29:25,799 --> 00:29:24,070
there and and they're getting closer to

573
00:29:28,619 --> 00:29:25,809
it they're getting closer to it you know

574
00:29:30,659 --> 00:29:28,629
quantum physics and the string theory

575
00:29:33,629 --> 00:29:30,669
and all this kind of stuff and the the

576
00:29:35,399 --> 00:29:33,639
the brands and all these different

577
00:29:37,710 --> 00:29:35,409
dimensions that rub up against each

578
00:29:40,019 --> 00:29:37,720
other you know that one of the things

579
00:29:44,119 --> 00:29:40,029
that we've experienced through a couple

580
00:29:48,690 --> 00:29:44,129
of abductees is had a case in Santa Cruz

581
00:29:50,609 --> 00:29:48,700
California where this couple observed

582
00:29:54,299 --> 00:29:50,619
this craft coming in over the ocean

583
00:29:55,799 --> 00:29:54,309
comes over their head in behind this

584
00:29:58,979 --> 00:29:55,809
little canyon behind them they were in

585
00:30:01,349 --> 00:29:58,989
Bhutan Oh state park and this is you

586
00:30:04,440 --> 00:30:01,359
know fairly high up off off the ocean

587
00:30:07,619 --> 00:30:04,450
floor there and this happened four more

588
00:30:09,930 --> 00:30:07,629
times in these craft sat in the canyon

589
00:30:11,639 --> 00:30:09,940
and they did this kind of butterfly move

590
00:30:14,009 --> 00:30:11,649
where they just all sat there and just

591
00:30:16,349 --> 00:30:14,019
waved up and down and then all of a

592
00:30:18,359 --> 00:30:16,359
sudden they went vertical and it's like

593
00:30:21,419 --> 00:30:18,369
they went around a corner and then they

594
00:30:23,669 --> 00:30:21,429
disappeared and and so you know what is

595
00:30:26,190 --> 00:30:23,679
that is that is that some other

596
00:30:28,200 --> 00:30:26,200
dimension that they went into because a

597
00:30:30,329 --> 00:30:28,210
lot of these experiences that happen

598
00:30:34,120 --> 00:30:30,339
that the craft just seems to

599
00:30:38,020 --> 00:30:34,130
instantaneously disappear or

600
00:30:41,410 --> 00:30:38,030
are able to do you know things that are

601
00:30:44,680 --> 00:30:41,420
just beyond our physics right now and

602
00:30:47,230 --> 00:30:44,690
also to when when the people are more so

603
00:30:50,590 --> 00:30:47,240
in the case of contactees I suppose as

604
00:30:52,870 --> 00:30:50,600
opposed to abductees they say that

605
00:30:56,560 --> 00:30:52,880
they've been you know snatched and and

606
00:30:58,930 --> 00:30:56,570
taken away they go to somewhere where

607
00:31:01,990 --> 00:30:58,940
else almost instantaneously I mean it's

608
00:31:04,500 --> 00:31:02,000
like to teleport it to another the solar

609
00:31:09,130 --> 00:31:04,510
system or star system that looks

610
00:31:11,520 --> 00:31:09,140
peculiar and very strange to them but

611
00:31:14,830 --> 00:31:11,530
they're able to walk out and in breathe

612
00:31:17,590 --> 00:31:14,840
just like you know they're able to do

613
00:31:20,620 --> 00:31:17,600
the altered terrestrial since I call

614
00:31:23,920 --> 00:31:20,630
them are able to do here I mean there

615
00:31:28,360 --> 00:31:23,930
seems to be a parallel universe that at

616
00:31:29,650 --> 00:31:28,370
play here because certainly you know in

617
00:31:33,310 --> 00:31:29,660
the early days they talked about going

618
00:31:35,350 --> 00:31:33,320
to Venus or Mars or some other place and

619
00:31:38,470 --> 00:31:35,360
in our own solar system and that seems

620
00:31:41,050 --> 00:31:38,480
very impractical at least on a in a

621
00:31:43,660 --> 00:31:41,060
physical sense but yet I don't think

622
00:31:45,550 --> 00:31:43,670
that you can say that these events are

623
00:31:47,860 --> 00:31:45,560
not happening because they are happening

624
00:31:50,920 --> 00:31:47,870
over and over and over and again again

625
00:31:54,010 --> 00:31:50,930
and it's not like is something that's

626
00:31:57,550 --> 00:31:54,020
just you know happening here in the

627
00:31:59,530 --> 00:31:57,560
United States no less it certainly is a

628
00:32:01,930 --> 00:31:59,540
worldwide phenomena we've got some of

629
00:32:05,680 --> 00:32:01,940
the the strangest most documented

630
00:32:08,830 --> 00:32:05,690
reports from Brazil that's always been

631
00:32:12,190 --> 00:32:08,840
one of my favorite locales for getting

632
00:32:13,630 --> 00:32:12,200
information in the old days we there

633
00:32:16,770 --> 00:32:13,640
were a couple of groups there down there

634
00:32:19,510 --> 00:32:16,780
that actually put out a english-language

635
00:32:22,750 --> 00:32:19,520
newsletter and they had they had some

636
00:32:25,900 --> 00:32:22,760
incredible reports of UFO Giants and

637
00:32:29,800 --> 00:32:25,910
one-eyed psycho Cyclops and winged

638
00:32:33,790 --> 00:32:29,810
beings and it was just some wonderful

639
00:32:36,970 --> 00:32:33,800
information that was coming our way and

640
00:32:41,050 --> 00:32:36,980
of course we have a Jay Gerrard who does

641
00:32:43,690 --> 00:32:41,060
the magazine in in Brazil UFO magazine

642
00:32:45,280 --> 00:32:43,700
which i think is the longest-running UFO

643
00:32:47,620 --> 00:32:45,290
magazine in the world attracting may be

644
00:32:47,980 --> 00:32:47,630
one of the few because the Australian

645
00:32:50,380 --> 00:32:47,990
Maggie

646
00:32:52,150 --> 00:32:50,390
seen the ufologist just went out of

647
00:32:55,060 --> 00:32:52,160
business today yeah they have been

648
00:32:56,980 --> 00:32:55,070
running for 20 years they were the last

649
00:32:59,440 --> 00:32:56,990
of the printed magazines in English and

650
00:33:03,580 --> 00:32:59,450
now they are no more yeah by the way AJ

651
00:33:08,110 --> 00:33:03,590
has passed away so no way yes when I

652
00:33:10,870 --> 00:33:08,120
think last year last year yeah that's

653
00:33:12,340 --> 00:33:10,880
funny there's nothing on his his site

654
00:33:14,620 --> 00:33:12,350
that I saw because I was just saying

655
00:33:17,410 --> 00:33:14,630
today that's terrible I met him yeah

656
00:33:19,410 --> 00:33:17,420
years ago he he stopped by when he was

657
00:33:22,060 --> 00:33:19,420
in the US and we had a drink

658
00:33:24,340 --> 00:33:22,070
downstairs in the in the restaurant very

659
00:33:28,090 --> 00:33:24,350
friendly Chapman and certainly very very

660
00:33:30,820 --> 00:33:28,100
well informed oh yeah absolutely he's

661
00:33:33,160 --> 00:33:30,830
done a great job for sure one of the

662
00:33:35,770 --> 00:33:33,170
things too they kind of triggered

663
00:33:37,330 --> 00:33:35,780
something you know we talked about how

664
00:33:40,240 --> 00:33:37,340
many people are having these types of

665
00:33:42,640 --> 00:33:40,250
experience well back in 1991 the Roper

666
00:33:45,160 --> 00:33:42,650
organization did a survey and they

667
00:33:47,560 --> 00:33:45,170
basically came up with eight million

668
00:33:50,590 --> 00:33:47,570
people that were having these types of

669
00:33:52,360 --> 00:33:50,600
experiences well that that was 1991 and

670
00:33:55,060 --> 00:33:52,370
I guarantee it's been a hell of a lot

671
00:34:02,200 --> 00:33:55,070
more people than that experiencing these

672
00:34:06,340 --> 00:34:02,210
types of phenomena so people ask me a

673
00:34:07,720 --> 00:34:06,350
lot of times so why why are you into

674
00:34:10,930 --> 00:34:07,730
this I mean you got a business

675
00:34:13,330 --> 00:34:10,940
background and what happened that you've

676
00:34:15,580 --> 00:34:13,340
got involved with all of this and well

677
00:34:18,070 --> 00:34:15,590
when I was 11 years old I saw something

678
00:34:19,510 --> 00:34:18,080
that scared the hell out of me and I

679
00:34:24,399 --> 00:34:19,520
went to the library started read books

680
00:34:27,250 --> 00:34:24,409
and had UFOs and the books that I picked

681
00:34:32,280 --> 00:34:27,260
up were George Adamski books which I'm

682
00:34:35,169 --> 00:34:32,290
sure you're familiar with and and so

683
00:34:37,000 --> 00:34:35,179
basically I was doing that for a while

684
00:34:39,149 --> 00:34:37,010
and then you know graduated from high

685
00:34:41,919 --> 00:34:39,159
school and then went off to college and

686
00:34:44,859 --> 00:34:41,929
got married had a couple of kids and

687
00:34:46,510 --> 00:34:44,869
moved out to California and was living

688
00:34:51,190 --> 00:34:46,520
in San Jose and I picked up the paper

689
00:34:52,899 --> 00:34:51,200
one day and Stanton Friedman was going

690
00:34:57,190 --> 00:34:52,909
to be talking about UFOs and a

691
00:34:58,690 --> 00:34:57,200
government cover-up and so I went to San

692
00:34:59,950 --> 00:34:58,700
Jose City College expecting to see a

693
00:35:02,270 --> 00:34:59,960
handful of people there well the

694
00:35:05,599 --> 00:35:02,280
auditorium was packed

695
00:35:07,760 --> 00:35:05,609
MUFON had a table out there hawking

696
00:35:09,050 --> 00:35:07,770
their journals and so I decided well I'm

697
00:35:11,120 --> 00:35:09,060
gonna get that because I want to get

698
00:35:13,609 --> 00:35:11,130
more involved and that wasn't enough

699
00:35:16,849 --> 00:35:13,619
after a while I decided well I got to

700
00:35:19,099 --> 00:35:16,859
become a field investigator so I did in

701
00:35:21,770 --> 00:35:19,109
all the cases almost without exception

702
00:35:24,920 --> 00:35:21,780
that I that I investigate it turned out

703
00:35:26,660 --> 00:35:24,930
to be abduction cases in the end most of

704
00:35:30,650 --> 00:35:26,670
the most of the time people have a

705
00:35:35,660 --> 00:35:30,660
sighting like that a abduction usually

706
00:35:37,340 --> 00:35:35,670
follows so then these people asked me to

707
00:35:39,440 --> 00:35:37,350
you do you know of other people having

708
00:35:42,710 --> 00:35:39,450
these types of experiences I said yes I

709
00:35:46,849 --> 00:35:42,720
do and the next thing I know I'm

710
00:35:48,680 --> 00:35:46,859
facilitating a support group and that

711
00:35:52,030 --> 00:35:48,690
was fascinating to listen to these

712
00:35:56,030 --> 00:35:52,040
people talk about their experiences and

713
00:35:57,859 --> 00:35:56,040
this one day this woman in the group

714
00:35:59,859 --> 00:35:57,869
said to me I've seen you before I said

715
00:36:02,420 --> 00:35:59,869
oh really we're at the mall at you know

716
00:36:05,390 --> 00:36:02,430
grocery store or whatever says no I saw

717
00:36:09,290 --> 00:36:05,400
a board on a board a ship I said really

718
00:36:12,290 --> 00:36:09,300
yes so I I kind of blew it off because I

719
00:36:15,680 --> 00:36:12,300
you know I just it wasn't something that

720
00:36:20,120 --> 00:36:15,690
I had any conscious recollection of and

721
00:36:22,609 --> 00:36:20,130
so I okay so the support groups

722
00:36:24,590 --> 00:36:22,619
continued it was probably a year two

723
00:36:26,810 --> 00:36:24,600
years later that a gentleman in the

724
00:36:29,630 --> 00:36:26,820
group says hey I've seen you before

725
00:36:31,250 --> 00:36:29,640
really we're on board the craft and you

726
00:36:34,190 --> 00:36:31,260
were freaking out and they told me to go

727
00:36:37,250 --> 00:36:34,200
over and help you you calm me down and I

728
00:36:40,430 --> 00:36:37,260
said oh my god so subsequent to that I

729
00:36:42,500 --> 00:36:40,440
had three hypnotic sessions regressions

730
00:36:45,290 --> 00:36:42,510
and I had a lot of past lives but I

731
00:36:51,380 --> 00:36:45,300
never brought up anything about being on

732
00:36:54,500 --> 00:36:51,390
a craft but make a long story short we

733
00:36:56,210 --> 00:36:54,510
started this organization in 1994 called

734
00:36:58,460 --> 00:36:56,220
opus the organization for paranormal

735
00:37:00,890 --> 00:36:58,470
understanding and support and the

736
00:37:03,109 --> 00:37:00,900
support part is really the major thing

737
00:37:04,849 --> 00:37:03,119
that we're doing these days because we

738
00:37:06,650 --> 00:37:04,859
have an online support group that's

739
00:37:09,440 --> 00:37:06,660
totally confidential we have over a

740
00:37:12,109 --> 00:37:09,450
hundred people in it from around the

741
00:37:14,870 --> 00:37:12,119
world that are talking to those to each

742
00:37:17,060 --> 00:37:14,880
other 24/7 and talking about their

743
00:37:20,750 --> 00:37:17,070
and I get two or three calls a week

744
00:37:23,450 --> 00:37:20,760
adding people to that group and it's

745
00:37:26,180 --> 00:37:23,460
it's one of the things that's so

746
00:37:28,070 --> 00:37:26,190
important when people are having these

747
00:37:31,850 --> 00:37:28,080
types of experiences to be able to talk

748
00:37:33,710 --> 00:37:31,860
to someone that will listen to them can

749
00:37:37,340 --> 00:37:33,720
understand what they're going through

750
00:37:40,760 --> 00:37:37,350
and so this has proved to be a very very

751
00:37:43,790 --> 00:37:40,770
positive thing and so I was really happy

752
00:37:46,730 --> 00:37:43,800
to get that started with a doctor friend

753
00:37:50,360 --> 00:37:46,740
of mine back in 1994 and we're

754
00:37:51,980 --> 00:37:50,370
officially I will 1/3 C nonprofit

755
00:37:56,570 --> 00:37:51,990
organization so that even the IRS

756
00:37:58,070 --> 00:37:56,580
recognizes us all right now I want you

757
00:37:59,840 --> 00:37:58,080
to backtrack a little bit I want to know

758
00:38:01,250 --> 00:37:59,850
more about the experience that you said

759
00:38:02,390 --> 00:38:01,260
the JED when you were a kid that scared

760
00:38:08,000 --> 00:38:02,400
the hell out of you can you talk about

761
00:38:11,480 --> 00:38:08,010
that oh sure it's pretty mundane I'll

762
00:38:15,020 --> 00:38:11,490
tell you another story about some people

763
00:38:19,730 --> 00:38:15,030
in the group but I was it was late

764
00:38:26,030 --> 00:38:19,740
October and I was out coming in from

765
00:38:27,890 --> 00:38:26,040
feeding my my dog Cesar and yeah I was

766
00:38:29,570 --> 00:38:27,900
you know you're way back but you won't

767
00:38:31,730 --> 00:38:29,580
believe this you're talking about your

768
00:38:35,740 --> 00:38:31,740
dog Cesar I am on the Caesars Atlantic

769
00:38:39,860 --> 00:38:35,750
City website right at this moment moment

770
00:38:43,010 --> 00:38:39,870
now that's a synchronicity maybe maybe

771
00:38:44,780 --> 00:38:43,020
we'll win $100,000 I hope so yeah well

772
00:38:46,460 --> 00:38:44,790
you know we tried that before that was

773
00:38:48,320 --> 00:38:46,470
tied in with Dan Aykroyd and I want to

774
00:38:50,750 --> 00:38:48,330
go in there but it was it didn't work

775
00:38:52,490 --> 00:38:50,760
but I'm out in the Caesars Atlantic City

776
00:38:58,370 --> 00:38:52,500
you have a great calendar right now

777
00:39:02,300 --> 00:38:58,380
anyway continue sorry too I just so I

778
00:39:04,370 --> 00:39:02,310
looked off to the to my right and where

779
00:39:08,240 --> 00:39:04,380
we lived it was it was fairly wooded and

780
00:39:12,290 --> 00:39:08,250
so there was this object it was totally

781
00:39:15,170 --> 00:39:12,300
silent it was this oval whitish best I

782
00:39:18,890 --> 00:39:15,180
could describe it thing just kind of

783
00:39:21,140 --> 00:39:18,900
floating and going by and so I ran in

784
00:39:23,180 --> 00:39:21,150
the house and I tried to get my father

785
00:39:24,890 --> 00:39:23,190
to come out finally I convinced him to

786
00:39:27,310 --> 00:39:24,900
come on out and by the time he came out

787
00:39:31,450 --> 00:39:27,320
there it was gone

788
00:39:33,040 --> 00:39:31,460
and you know I've seen searchlights you

789
00:39:34,210 --> 00:39:33,050
know reflecting off clouds and things

790
00:39:35,740 --> 00:39:34,220
like that that was the first thing my

791
00:39:37,720 --> 00:39:35,750
father said to me he says well you know

792
00:39:39,400 --> 00:39:37,730
this is this is probably just a beacon

793
00:39:42,820 --> 00:39:39,410
of light somewhere reflecting off the

794
00:39:43,480 --> 00:39:42,830
cloud I said that didn't really look

795
00:39:45,940 --> 00:39:43,490
like that

796
00:39:48,810 --> 00:39:45,950
and so that's what drove me to the

797
00:39:52,300 --> 00:39:48,820
library and started reading about all

798
00:39:54,880 --> 00:39:52,310
George's books and Adamski's books and

799
00:39:55,480 --> 00:39:54,890
it was fascinating but I'll tell you

800
00:40:01,900 --> 00:39:55,490
this once

801
00:40:05,380 --> 00:40:01,910
one story this couple came to the

802
00:40:07,270 --> 00:40:05,390
support group meeting and first thing

803
00:40:11,290 --> 00:40:07,280
they did they they they had a picture of

804
00:40:13,720 --> 00:40:11,300
a rash that they had and they wanted to

805
00:40:17,650 --> 00:40:13,730
know if anybody else in the group had a

806
00:40:19,420 --> 00:40:17,660
similar rash and so they showed the

807
00:40:23,830 --> 00:40:19,430
picture around the group and almost

808
00:40:27,430 --> 00:40:23,840
without exception they all had similar

809
00:40:28,750 --> 00:40:27,440
rash at one time and one of the people

810
00:40:31,510 --> 00:40:28,760
in the group says well I know what

811
00:40:34,480 --> 00:40:31,520
that's from and so we said oh really

812
00:40:35,920 --> 00:40:34,490
okay what is it says that's the fluid

813
00:40:40,030 --> 00:40:35,930
that they dip you in when they bring you

814
00:40:43,930 --> 00:40:40,040
on board the craft to sanitize you and

815
00:40:45,840 --> 00:40:43,940
some people have reactions so that was a

816
00:40:51,850 --> 00:40:45,850
mind-blower right there

817
00:40:55,090 --> 00:40:51,860
but there's just so many stories that go

818
00:40:57,100 --> 00:40:55,100
along with each of these cases that you

819
00:41:00,610 --> 00:40:57,110
know and in a way they're there they're

820
00:41:04,600 --> 00:41:00,620
all very similar in a broad sense you

821
00:41:07,330 --> 00:41:04,610
know that they in abducted they're

822
00:41:09,610 --> 00:41:07,340
brought aboard the craft they things

823
00:41:13,230 --> 00:41:09,620
happen to them and then they're brought

824
00:41:14,890 --> 00:41:13,240
back that's it you know very short

825
00:41:18,340 --> 00:41:14,900
scenario

826
00:41:22,050 --> 00:41:18,350
sometimes they're shown various you know

827
00:41:24,280 --> 00:41:22,060
things on a on screen you know showing

828
00:41:26,140 --> 00:41:24,290
destruction and you know all kinds of

829
00:41:28,510 --> 00:41:26,150
negative things that we don't get our

830
00:41:30,520 --> 00:41:28,520
act together and that's one thing that

831
00:41:33,490 --> 00:41:30,530
that that happens with these people that

832
00:41:36,310 --> 00:41:33,500
are abducted by the end of this process

833
00:41:38,890 --> 00:41:36,320
and is it's a spiritual process by the

834
00:41:41,290 --> 00:41:38,900
way it's not a religious thing it's a

835
00:41:43,480 --> 00:41:41,300
spiritual thing where people

836
00:41:44,800 --> 00:41:43,490
about the other end of these experiences

837
00:41:47,140 --> 00:41:44,810
and say hey we got to be good to our

838
00:41:50,350 --> 00:41:47,150
fellow man we have to take care of the

839
00:41:54,100 --> 00:41:50,360
earth you know this the water this the

840
00:41:56,980 --> 00:41:54,110
air the animals the trees you name it

841
00:41:58,570 --> 00:41:56,990
and it's it's it's absolutely

842
00:42:00,190 --> 00:41:58,580
fascinating to see them go through this

843
00:42:02,890 --> 00:42:00,200
process where in the beginning they're

844
00:42:05,440 --> 00:42:02,900
absolutely terrified then they come to a

845
00:42:08,530 --> 00:42:05,450
point where they finally come to accept

846
00:42:09,880 --> 00:42:08,540
it and then at the end if it stops it's

847
00:42:12,160 --> 00:42:09,890
sort of like the Stockholm Syndrome

848
00:42:14,110 --> 00:42:12,170
where all of a sudden eight it's not

849
00:42:17,140 --> 00:42:14,120
happening I mean where are you welcome

850
00:42:22,330 --> 00:42:17,150
you're not you know coming to see me so

851
00:42:27,280 --> 00:42:22,340
it's a fascinating phenomenon and the

852
00:42:32,170 --> 00:42:27,290
things that occur you know being able to

853
00:42:34,630 --> 00:42:32,180
go through walls for instance which you

854
00:42:38,680 --> 00:42:34,640
know talk about poltergeist activity I

855
00:42:40,420 --> 00:42:38,690
mean that's then right up that alley so

856
00:42:42,520 --> 00:42:40,430
there's a lot of similarities yes

857
00:42:46,080 --> 00:42:42,530
absolutely you know Shannon's doing her

858
00:42:49,150 --> 00:42:46,090
thing there and that's that's absolutely

859
00:42:52,000 --> 00:42:49,160
an important part of this whole

860
00:42:54,460 --> 00:42:52,010
phenomena I think that we were trying to

861
00:42:56,350 --> 00:42:54,470
get our arms around well and with the

862
00:42:59,110 --> 00:42:56,360
with the abduction phenomenon it's a

863
00:43:01,840 --> 00:42:59,120
generational phenomena as well I mean

864
00:43:06,430 --> 00:43:01,850
very rarely do you have somebody who

865
00:43:07,990 --> 00:43:06,440
came to have been abducted that you go

866
00:43:10,950 --> 00:43:08,000
and you know like do a little research

867
00:43:14,230 --> 00:43:10,960
and find that yeah well maybe you know

868
00:43:16,690 --> 00:43:14,240
mom or dad or even as far back as got

869
00:43:18,580 --> 00:43:16,700
parents or grandparents or

870
00:43:22,330 --> 00:43:18,590
great-grandparents as well absolutely

871
00:43:24,970 --> 00:43:22,340
and and not only that there's there

872
00:43:30,880 --> 00:43:24,980
certain groups that also the Native

873
00:43:34,450 --> 00:43:30,890
Americans who have a real strong seem to

874
00:43:39,490 --> 00:43:34,460
be picked out to to be followed military

875
00:43:43,870 --> 00:43:39,500
people with military backgrounds so yeah

876
00:43:45,550 --> 00:43:43,880
very generational you have mothers and

877
00:43:47,290 --> 00:43:45,560
all of a sudden you know like a daughter

878
00:43:48,880 --> 00:43:47,300
will come to the to the mother and say

879
00:43:50,980 --> 00:43:48,890
you know I'm having these experiences

880
00:43:53,190 --> 00:43:50,990
and and the mother kind of blows it off

881
00:43:54,940 --> 00:43:53,200
but then later on in life she finally

882
00:43:56,560 --> 00:43:54,950
confesses and saying well

883
00:44:01,210 --> 00:43:56,570
you know what I've had those same things

884
00:44:05,859 --> 00:44:01,220
and so what is that you know what what

885
00:44:09,730 --> 00:44:05,869
is what is happening and so I believe

886
00:44:12,460 --> 00:44:09,740
that this is not any type of mental

887
00:44:14,410 --> 00:44:12,470
state that we as certainly we don't

888
00:44:18,040 --> 00:44:14,420
understand it's not a psychopathology

889
00:44:21,130 --> 00:44:18,050
that's going on it's it's it's it's real

890
00:44:25,810 --> 00:44:21,140
dr. John Mack you know is delved into

891
00:44:27,900 --> 00:44:25,820
that and done a fantastic job and almost

892
00:44:30,730 --> 00:44:27,910
lost his job at Harvard over that

893
00:44:35,829 --> 00:44:30,740
unfortunately he got run over in the UK

894
00:44:38,859 --> 00:44:35,839
which is kind of mysterious but and then

895
00:44:43,180 --> 00:44:38,869
like the kids the kids in South Africa

896
00:44:45,670 --> 00:44:43,190
that I mean the whole school saw this

897
00:44:50,440 --> 00:44:45,680
this thing come down and they'll you

898
00:44:52,300 --> 00:44:50,450
know entities come out and you know so

899
00:44:54,400 --> 00:44:52,310
what is this is it an is it

900
00:44:56,020 --> 00:44:54,410
extraterrestrial is an interdimensional

901
00:44:58,870 --> 00:44:56,030
like I said before or is it all the

902
00:44:59,890 --> 00:44:58,880
above well one of the you know one of

903
00:45:02,200 --> 00:44:59,900
the things that I've always found

904
00:45:04,120 --> 00:45:02,210
fascinating by this and you know I've

905
00:45:06,250 --> 00:45:04,130
been I've been around long enough and

906
00:45:11,530 --> 00:45:06,260
have have researched this long enough to

907
00:45:13,660 --> 00:45:11,540
you know have seen scénic different

908
00:45:16,990 --> 00:45:13,670
things come and go you know you had like

909
00:45:18,760 --> 00:45:17,000
back in the early 1950s you know into

910
00:45:21,790 --> 00:45:18,770
the 60s and even the 70s you had the

911
00:45:25,150 --> 00:45:21,800
whole contactee movement and that has

912
00:45:27,940 --> 00:45:25,160
kind of you know pretty much disappeared

913
00:45:31,630 --> 00:45:27,950
or at least the the public part of it

914
00:45:34,500 --> 00:45:31,640
has only to be replaced by you know the

915
00:45:36,760 --> 00:45:34,510
so-called you know abduction or

916
00:45:37,960 --> 00:45:36,770
experience or phenomena and I and I

917
00:45:39,940 --> 00:45:37,970
realized that you know this is a

918
00:45:41,589 --> 00:45:39,950
speculation on your part but I mean you

919
00:45:46,390 --> 00:45:41,599
know what's the difference I mean you

920
00:45:47,589 --> 00:45:46,400
know why why is this happened yeah

921
00:45:51,099 --> 00:45:47,599
that's a good question

922
00:45:53,710 --> 00:45:51,109
um you know I think from a technological

923
00:45:56,470 --> 00:45:53,720
standpoint you know we progressed in the

924
00:46:00,390 --> 00:45:56,480
last sixty years so far you know from

925
00:46:02,470 --> 00:46:00,400
remember okay I'm I'm an older guy

926
00:46:04,150 --> 00:46:02,480
looking at a little tiny you know

927
00:46:06,950 --> 00:46:04,160
circular TV screen you know

928
00:46:11,150 --> 00:46:08,810
and you know look at where we are today

929
00:46:14,270 --> 00:46:11,160
you know it's like a Star Trek or Star

930
00:46:16,340 --> 00:46:14,280
Wars you know with the technology we

931
00:46:21,140 --> 00:46:16,350
have so I think that's that's kind of

932
00:46:26,060 --> 00:46:21,150
what happens that our perspective on a

933
00:46:29,270 --> 00:46:26,070
situation is is is molded by what we're

934
00:46:32,060 --> 00:46:29,280
dealing with at the time and I think you

935
00:46:35,030 --> 00:46:32,070
know we've progressed way past you know

936
00:46:38,270 --> 00:46:35,040
the giant rock meetups and things like

937
00:46:39,920 --> 00:46:38,280
that although we're having more UFO

938
00:46:42,110 --> 00:46:39,930
conventions than you can shake a stick

939
00:46:47,000 --> 00:46:42,120
at these days you know I mean they're

940
00:46:51,440 --> 00:46:47,010
all over the place you know and so it so

941
00:46:55,580 --> 00:46:51,450
that's that's take you to know I'm in

942
00:46:58,670 --> 00:46:55,590
Texas down you know I'm originally from

943
00:47:00,410 --> 00:46:58,680
Connecticut and I got a Shannon I gotta

944
00:47:03,830 --> 00:47:00,420
tell you I got married in Laroy in New

945
00:47:06,910 --> 00:47:03,840
York you know where that is mm-hmm and

946
00:47:10,040 --> 00:47:06,920
so I know the East Coast very well and

947
00:47:13,750 --> 00:47:10,050
yeah I lived there for many years and

948
00:47:16,490 --> 00:47:13,760
then moved out to California in 85 and

949
00:47:19,850 --> 00:47:16,500
got it got into business out there and

950
00:47:22,130 --> 00:47:19,860
then just recently retired and so now I

951
00:47:28,070 --> 00:47:22,140
decided that it's too damn expensive in

952
00:47:30,680 --> 00:47:28,080
San Jose and I moved to Texas now do you

953
00:47:31,220 --> 00:47:30,690
it is you've lived in several different

954
00:47:34,400 --> 00:47:31,230
places

955
00:47:38,030 --> 00:47:34,410
do you notice an attitude differential

956
00:47:40,490 --> 00:47:38,040
when you move from place to place yes

957
00:47:45,380 --> 00:47:40,500
there's no question about it

958
00:47:49,970 --> 00:47:45,390
the California is much more open to all

959
00:47:52,960 --> 00:47:49,980
of this Connecticut you know at the time

960
00:47:58,190 --> 00:47:52,970
I probably couldn't give you a very good

961
00:48:00,100 --> 00:47:58,200
feel on that because I was a lot younger

962
00:48:02,690 --> 00:48:00,110
and wasn't paying much attention to that

963
00:48:04,400 --> 00:48:02,700
John white used to have his conventions

964
00:48:06,470 --> 00:48:04,410
there that was the one ah

965
00:48:08,240 --> 00:48:06,480
all right I need interrupt you all

966
00:48:10,460 --> 00:48:08,250
because it's time to go to our next

967
00:48:11,790 --> 00:48:10,470
break and when we come back we'll have

968
00:48:20,410 --> 00:48:11,800
more

969
00:48:20,420 --> 00:48:25,220
[Music]

970
00:48:32,180 --> 00:48:29,730
explode the bazaars your e-ticket ride

971
00:48:35,460 --> 00:48:32,190
into the world of the paranormal

972
00:48:39,770 --> 00:48:35,470
strap yourself in as we traverse the

973
00:48:42,890 --> 00:48:39,780
universe exploring the unexplained UFO s

974
00:48:45,270 --> 00:48:42,900
ghosts Lost Worlds

975
00:48:49,109 --> 00:48:45,280
cryptozoology as well as other

976
00:48:54,270 --> 00:48:49,119
dimensions it's time to take back the

977
00:48:57,359 --> 00:48:54,280
night now your electrifying hosts of

978
00:49:03,960 --> 00:48:57,369
exploring the bizarre Timothy Begley and

979
00:49:06,450 --> 00:49:03,970
team sports second hour of exploring the

980
00:49:08,520 --> 00:49:06,460
bizarre I'm Tim Schwartz and Tim we just

981
00:49:10,770 --> 00:49:08,530
have a fascinating program tonight and I

982
00:49:12,780 --> 00:49:10,780
want to bring you a shannon back into

983
00:49:16,230 --> 00:49:12,790
the conversation because i've got a lot

984
00:49:20,730 --> 00:49:16,240
of questions that i want to ask her now

985
00:49:24,240 --> 00:49:20,740
shannon and doing my research before the

986
00:49:27,690 --> 00:49:24,250
show about you i i've run across some

987
00:49:31,250 --> 00:49:27,700
articles that you know go oh gosh you

988
00:49:36,120 --> 00:49:31,260
know what maybe you know as far back as

989
00:49:39,390 --> 00:49:36,130
2012 maybe 2013 where at that point you

990
00:49:44,309 --> 00:49:39,400
are already starting to take photographs

991
00:49:46,980 --> 00:49:44,319
of mediums and seances and things like

992
00:49:48,900 --> 00:49:46,990
that i mean how long now have you been

993
00:49:51,780 --> 00:49:48,910
working on this project leading up to

994
00:49:56,430 --> 00:49:51,790
this book I actually began the project

995
00:49:59,880 --> 00:49:56,440
in 2001 so it's 17 years in the making

996
00:50:04,230 --> 00:49:59,890
and it just it took me that long because

997
00:50:06,690 --> 00:50:04,240
I it's such a complicated topic and

998
00:50:08,730 --> 00:50:06,700
there's a lot of fascinating history

999
00:50:12,569 --> 00:50:08,740
behind it and there's a lot of ambiguity

1000
00:50:16,799 --> 00:50:12,579
and a lot of ways to look at at things

1001
00:50:18,750 --> 00:50:16,809
so yeah 17 years so now where was the

1002
00:50:20,670 --> 00:50:18,760
what was the first place that that you

1003
00:50:24,480 --> 00:50:20,680
visited or perhaps I should say who was

1004
00:50:28,260 --> 00:50:24,490
the the first medium that you took shots

1005
00:50:33,120 --> 00:50:28,270
of so the first place I began the

1006
00:50:35,579 --> 00:50:33,130
project at Lille down New York so clear

1007
00:50:38,370 --> 00:50:35,589
it's a the world's largest spiritualist

1008
00:50:39,840 --> 00:50:38,380
community and the

1009
00:50:42,620 --> 00:50:39,850
first medium who let me allowed me to

1010
00:50:46,140 --> 00:50:42,630
photograph her was a woman named

1011
00:50:50,190 --> 00:50:46,150
Gretchen Clark and I was sitting in on

1012
00:50:53,040 --> 00:50:50,200
her one of her readings and she was you

1013
00:50:57,000 --> 00:50:53,050
know she was giving messages to clients

1014
00:51:00,480 --> 00:50:57,010
you know speaking to to their you know

1015
00:51:01,920 --> 00:51:00,490
people their their relatives and all of

1016
00:51:05,760 --> 00:51:01,930
a sudden she turned to me and she said

1017
00:51:07,890 --> 00:51:05,770
Shin and Margaret's here and I I thought

1018
00:51:10,320 --> 00:51:07,900
I don't know if I know a Margaret and

1019
00:51:18,000 --> 00:51:10,330
she says she says Texas what does Texas

1020
00:51:22,110 --> 00:51:18,010
mean and the same because sorry because

1021
00:51:26,000 --> 00:51:22,120
I did have a great aunt named Margaret

1022
00:51:31,380 --> 00:51:29,820
what did ya we a you're coming in and

1023
00:51:35,700 --> 00:51:31,390
out just a little bit so go ahead can

1024
00:51:38,550 --> 00:51:35,710
did you and that was my first I guess my

1025
00:51:40,410 --> 00:51:38,560
first moment of oh oh my gosh

1026
00:51:42,690 --> 00:51:40,420
something's happening here you know I

1027
00:51:44,580 --> 00:51:42,700
had even forgot that I had this at

1028
00:51:47,610 --> 00:51:44,590
Margaret and you know she was from Texas

1029
00:51:49,710 --> 00:51:47,620
and she had recently passed so that yeah

1030
00:51:51,420 --> 00:51:49,720
you know um and when I first began the

1031
00:51:52,950 --> 00:51:51,430
project I couldn't really understand how

1032
00:51:55,350 --> 00:51:52,960
you could be a sane person and speak

1033
00:51:57,600 --> 00:51:55,360
with dead people but I was so curious

1034
00:51:59,970 --> 00:51:57,610
and I I did believe that there was

1035
00:52:01,650 --> 00:51:59,980
something genuine happening I just

1036
00:52:03,570 --> 00:52:01,660
didn't know how to look at it or I

1037
00:52:06,840 --> 00:52:03,580
didn't really understand it I was very

1038
00:52:08,220 --> 00:52:06,850
green I had never before I began this

1039
00:52:10,320 --> 00:52:08,230
project I had never had a reading before

1040
00:52:12,510 --> 00:52:10,330
you know I just had the experience of my

1041
00:52:18,060 --> 00:52:12,520
cousin that I was you know that drew me

1042
00:52:20,850 --> 00:52:18,070
there know what was the what was the

1043
00:52:22,560 --> 00:52:20,860
reaction of these people when you first

1044
00:52:24,270 --> 00:52:22,570
approached them and you know said hey

1045
00:52:26,790 --> 00:52:24,280
you know I want to you know take your

1046
00:52:29,340 --> 00:52:26,800
pictures I mean did they welcomed you

1047
00:52:33,690 --> 00:52:29,350
with open arms or we met with some

1048
00:52:36,420 --> 00:52:33,700
suspicions you know actually the people

1049
00:52:39,660 --> 00:52:36,430
of lily Dell were incredibly gracious

1050
00:52:42,000 --> 00:52:39,670
and generous with their time and they

1051
00:52:43,830 --> 00:52:42,010
taught me they basically sat me down and

1052
00:52:47,520 --> 00:52:43,840
taught me everything I know about

1053
00:52:49,110 --> 00:52:47,530
spiritualism and they were patient with

1054
00:52:51,060 --> 00:52:49,120
me I would just go and literally knock

1055
00:52:51,870 --> 00:52:51,070
on doors and ask people to tell me about

1056
00:52:55,620 --> 00:52:51,880
their beliefs

1057
00:52:58,140 --> 00:52:55,630
their experiences and they did so it was

1058
00:53:00,569 --> 00:52:58,150
it was a really wonderful experience and

1059
00:53:02,309 --> 00:53:00,579
I just loved the people of Lilydale and

1060
00:53:05,309 --> 00:53:02,319
will forever be in my hearts for how

1061
00:53:07,049 --> 00:53:05,319
they welcomed me and but one of the most

1062
00:53:10,589 --> 00:53:07,059
fascinating things that I was taught

1063
00:53:13,109 --> 00:53:10,599
early on was this whole history of

1064
00:53:14,970 --> 00:53:13,119
spirit photography yeah I had studied

1065
00:53:17,549 --> 00:53:14,980
photography at the Rochester Institute

1066
00:53:20,970 --> 00:53:17,559
of Technology and we went over the

1067
00:53:22,890 --> 00:53:20,980
history extensively and it this this

1068
00:53:24,690 --> 00:53:22,900
history is not written in and into any

1069
00:53:27,329 --> 00:53:24,700
of the official history books that I

1070
00:53:31,079 --> 00:53:27,339
learned from you know but there is this

1071
00:53:34,099 --> 00:53:31,089
very fascinating bizarre photographic

1072
00:53:38,039 --> 00:53:34,109
record of people trying to photograph

1073
00:53:39,660 --> 00:53:38,049
spirits invisible realms and you know it

1074
00:53:41,490 --> 00:53:39,670
since the beginning of photography

1075
00:53:44,490 --> 00:53:41,500
people were using photography in this

1076
00:53:47,849 --> 00:53:44,500
way it's just kind of I guess photo

1077
00:53:50,339 --> 00:53:47,859
historian some materialists believe that

1078
00:53:52,289 --> 00:53:50,349
it's an embarrassing moment so it's it's

1079
00:53:54,480 --> 00:53:52,299
not included but I think it's an

1080
00:53:57,660 --> 00:53:54,490
important moment in the history of

1081
00:53:59,430 --> 00:53:57,670
photography you know it's it's

1082
00:54:04,200 --> 00:53:59,440
interesting that you would bring that up

1083
00:54:06,930 --> 00:54:04,210
because you've seen or you know you go

1084
00:54:10,589 --> 00:54:06,940
online and in fact I've been to actually

1085
00:54:12,599 --> 00:54:10,599
some shows that have dealt with the

1086
00:54:16,799 --> 00:54:12,609
early days of photography and it seems

1087
00:54:19,200 --> 00:54:16,809
like that one of the first subjects that

1088
00:54:21,749 --> 00:54:19,210
photographers took on when they learned

1089
00:54:24,089 --> 00:54:21,759
how to start taking pictures was a

1090
00:54:27,089 --> 00:54:24,099
spirit photography now there's been a

1091
00:54:29,400 --> 00:54:27,099
lot of accusations that most of these

1092
00:54:31,440 --> 00:54:29,410
and and you know it's it's probably true

1093
00:54:34,109 --> 00:54:31,450
you know that most of these photographs

1094
00:54:36,240 --> 00:54:34,119
were were faked you know double

1095
00:54:41,099 --> 00:54:36,250
exposures and that that sort of thing

1096
00:54:43,349 --> 00:54:41,109
but then there are others that they

1097
00:54:47,099 --> 00:54:43,359
they're they go outside of the mold so

1098
00:54:48,690 --> 00:54:47,109
to speak they don't look like what you

1099
00:54:50,640 --> 00:54:48,700
would think of a double exposure or

1100
00:54:55,640 --> 00:54:50,650
things like that they look different

1101
00:55:01,529 --> 00:54:55,650
somehow yeah it's a very complicated

1102
00:55:03,380 --> 00:55:01,539
bizarre deeply I always say that that

1103
00:55:05,680 --> 00:55:03,390
this moment it within the history of

1104
00:55:09,240 --> 00:55:05,690
spirit photography was when

1105
00:55:14,710 --> 00:55:09,250
most absurd and dramatic and oddly

1106
00:55:16,780 --> 00:55:14,720
compelling moments in in photographic

1107
00:55:17,890 --> 00:55:16,790
history because the the photos some of

1108
00:55:19,900 --> 00:55:17,900
them are you know especially the

1109
00:55:22,690 --> 00:55:19,910
ectoplasmic photos of the mediums

1110
00:55:24,940 --> 00:55:22,700
half-naked stretched out with the stuff

1111
00:55:28,510 --> 00:55:24,950
oozing from their their bodies I mean

1112
00:55:32,620 --> 00:55:28,520
it's very dramatic and and weird and

1113
00:55:35,050 --> 00:55:32,630
there's this absurd these absurd visuals

1114
00:55:37,540 --> 00:55:35,060
that they look fake but when you read

1115
00:55:39,880 --> 00:55:37,550
the reports of the mediums it's totally

1116
00:55:42,220 --> 00:55:39,890
in contrast to that the fakeness of the

1117
00:55:44,260 --> 00:55:42,230
image when you read you know people like

1118
00:55:45,940 --> 00:55:44,270
Charles Roche of what his experience of

1119
00:55:48,850 --> 00:55:45,950
ectoplasm was and he was a Nobel

1120
00:55:51,190 --> 00:55:48,860
laureate in medicine and you know his

1121
00:55:54,250 --> 00:55:51,200
descriptions of ectoplasm are completely

1122
00:55:59,050 --> 00:55:54,260
fascinating and run against the

1123
00:56:01,570 --> 00:55:59,060
absurdity of the images there are a lot

1124
00:56:04,050 --> 00:56:01,580
of people think that some of these

1125
00:56:06,580 --> 00:56:04,060
photographs are showing the the

1126
00:56:09,340 --> 00:56:06,590
appearances of ectoplasm all took place

1127
00:56:12,190 --> 00:56:09,350
you know in dark rooms under red lights

1128
00:56:15,310 --> 00:56:12,200
or it'll just conditions that you

1129
00:56:21,370 --> 00:56:15,320
couldn't see very easily however there

1130
00:56:23,860 --> 00:56:21,380
were a number that were very the records

1131
00:56:25,780 --> 00:56:23,870
were very detailed that took place in in

1132
00:56:28,960 --> 00:56:25,790
bright lights I mean it's it wasn't all

1133
00:56:33,310 --> 00:56:28,970
just under dark or in you know curtain'd

1134
00:56:35,800 --> 00:56:33,320
cabinets or things like that yeah I mean

1135
00:56:38,650 --> 00:56:35,810
when you go back and read the reports

1136
00:56:40,480 --> 00:56:38,660
it's it's really fascinating but I also

1137
00:56:43,090 --> 00:56:40,490
think there's another way that you could

1138
00:56:45,580 --> 00:56:43,100
look at it if you think that you know

1139
00:56:47,800 --> 00:56:45,590
all the images are fake it is

1140
00:56:49,510 --> 00:56:47,810
interesting to consider that well is

1141
00:56:51,490 --> 00:56:49,520
this then the first religious

1142
00:56:53,680 --> 00:56:51,500
iconography to be created with

1143
00:56:55,720 --> 00:56:53,690
photography is that what we're dealing

1144
00:56:57,010 --> 00:56:55,730
with you know at the time when they were

1145
00:57:00,310 --> 00:56:57,020
making the pictures they were trying to

1146
00:57:03,310 --> 00:57:00,320
create scientific proof of spirits so

1147
00:57:05,650 --> 00:57:03,320
it's it kind of crosses this line into

1148
00:57:07,870 --> 00:57:05,660
religion and spiritualism always it

1149
00:57:10,300 --> 00:57:07,880
always wanted to merge religion and

1150
00:57:12,630 --> 00:57:10,310
science and kind of finally answer all

1151
00:57:17,260 --> 00:57:12,640
the questions and scientifically prove

1152
00:57:18,640 --> 00:57:17,270
the spiritual realm and you know I I

1153
00:57:19,450 --> 00:57:18,650
don't know I think there's too much

1154
00:57:21,520 --> 00:57:19,460
ambiguity

1155
00:57:25,780 --> 00:57:21,530
there now some of your own foot

1156
00:57:27,610 --> 00:57:25,790
photographs that I've seen are extremely

1157
00:57:28,960 --> 00:57:27,620
interesting and the one I'm thinking

1158
00:57:31,240 --> 00:57:28,970
about in particular you know talking

1159
00:57:32,680 --> 00:57:31,250
about ectoplasm is and I and I can't

1160
00:57:36,490 --> 00:57:32,690
think of the gentleman's name but the

1161
00:57:40,840 --> 00:57:36,500
the gentleman who his hand looked like

1162
00:57:43,840 --> 00:57:40,850
that it was enlarged or wrapped almost

1163
00:57:45,610 --> 00:57:43,850
in some kind of of substance you know

1164
00:57:49,300 --> 00:57:45,620
tell us a little bit about those

1165
00:57:51,010 --> 00:57:49,310
photographs yes so that is a medium a

1166
00:57:54,030 --> 00:57:51,020
physical medium in England named Gordon

1167
00:57:58,720 --> 00:57:54,040
Garr fourth and he says you know he

1168
00:58:00,960 --> 00:57:58,730
ectoplasm can manipulate his body so he

1169
00:58:03,220 --> 00:58:00,970
said to me when you come to my sense

1170
00:58:05,590 --> 00:58:03,230
ectoplasm you can it changes the the

1171
00:58:08,470 --> 00:58:05,600
shape of my face and it enlarges my

1172
00:58:09,880 --> 00:58:08,480
hands and I thought okay well I'm

1173
00:58:11,830 --> 00:58:09,890
probably not going to see this in the

1174
00:58:13,840 --> 00:58:11,840
sands because sometimes you run a run

1175
00:58:15,250 --> 00:58:13,850
across these situations where people

1176
00:58:17,910 --> 00:58:15,260
tell you're going to see something and

1177
00:58:20,950 --> 00:58:17,920
you don't and it's a very subjective

1178
00:58:22,510 --> 00:58:20,960
experience so I did but I went into the

1179
00:58:24,640 --> 00:58:22,520
sands with an open mind i sat in the

1180
00:58:28,110 --> 00:58:24,650
front row I was about six feet away from

1181
00:58:32,380 --> 00:58:28,120
him he was wearing a short t-shirt and

1182
00:58:35,950 --> 00:58:32,390
his wife was his you know his the kind

1183
00:58:37,990 --> 00:58:35,960
of leading the the ceremony and there

1184
00:58:39,610 --> 00:58:38,000
the seance and and she's about 20

1185
00:58:41,490 --> 00:58:39,620
minutes and she says okay the spirits

1186
00:58:45,070 --> 00:58:41,500
are now going to work with Gordon's

1187
00:58:48,940 --> 00:58:45,080
hands and changed their shape and so he

1188
00:58:51,370 --> 00:58:48,950
put out his hand and it's the most

1189
00:58:53,230 --> 00:58:51,380
magical thing I ever saw it just looked

1190
00:58:57,040 --> 00:58:53,240
like effortlessly skipped into this

1191
00:58:58,780 --> 00:58:57,050
gigantic form and I screamed which is

1192
00:59:01,480 --> 00:58:58,790
like a very impolite thing to do in a

1193
00:59:03,130 --> 00:59:01,490
seance and and then everybody else

1194
00:59:04,900 --> 00:59:03,140
started screaming too and I couldn't

1195
00:59:11,770 --> 00:59:04,910
tell are they screaming because I'm

1196
00:59:14,110 --> 00:59:11,780
screaming or they scratch and and so I

1197
00:59:15,640 --> 00:59:14,120
did it this hand was gigantic that I saw

1198
00:59:16,870 --> 00:59:15,650
and I was convinced because you know

1199
00:59:18,730 --> 00:59:16,880
when you're under the red light in the

1200
00:59:20,650 --> 00:59:18,740
dark rooms you know your eyes play

1201
00:59:22,870 --> 00:59:20,660
tricks on you and I thought okay I think

1202
00:59:24,880 --> 00:59:22,880
hypnotically rendered this large hand

1203
00:59:28,210 --> 00:59:24,890
and when I'm going to see my pictures

1204
00:59:30,760 --> 00:59:28,220
it's going to be a small hand but no on

1205
00:59:32,380 --> 00:59:30,770
my camera wears these gigantic hands and

1206
00:59:33,280 --> 00:59:32,390
they looked different than they looked

1207
00:59:35,170 --> 00:59:33,290
with my eye

1208
00:59:37,330 --> 00:59:35,180
and people will say to me oh that's a

1209
00:59:39,820 --> 00:59:37,340
mask or that's a glove or it's a

1210
00:59:42,850 --> 00:59:39,830
prosthetic and I'm telling you it was

1211
00:59:46,240 --> 00:59:42,860
not I mean if it was a magic trick it

1212
00:59:48,340 --> 00:59:46,250
was a very the most elegant gorgeous

1213
00:59:51,100 --> 00:59:48,350
magic trick I've ever seen in my entire

1214
00:59:53,350 --> 00:59:51,110
life and but I love that the image has

1215
00:59:56,350 --> 00:59:53,360
it ambiguity about like it's really

1216
00:59:59,080 --> 00:59:56,360
unclear what is going on now has there

1217
01:00:01,720 --> 00:59:59,090
ever been a case of where the lights

1218
01:00:07,330 --> 01:00:01,730
have come up and the ectoplasm is still

1219
01:00:09,580 --> 01:00:07,340
present no I mean not that I've seen I

1220
01:00:11,590 --> 01:00:09,590
mean there have been like the famous

1221
01:00:15,070 --> 01:00:11,600
story for example of the medium Helen

1222
01:00:16,930 --> 01:00:15,080
Duncan who the cops ran into her seance

1223
01:00:19,000 --> 01:00:16,940
when she was doing ectoplasm and they

1224
01:00:20,710 --> 01:00:19,010
turned on the lights and and she's kind

1225
01:00:23,950 --> 01:00:20,720
of like a spiritualist martyr because

1226
01:00:26,080 --> 01:00:23,960
she died six days later and that's what

1227
01:00:29,860 --> 01:00:26,090
in the in the UK that was accused of

1228
01:00:31,840 --> 01:00:29,870
witchcraft yes the last person to be in

1229
01:00:34,060 --> 01:00:31,850
fact we're going to heaven we have one

1230
01:00:36,850 --> 01:00:34,070
of our favorite guests there's been the

1231
01:00:41,710 --> 01:00:36,860
porter he works in the hospital

1232
01:00:44,590 --> 01:00:41,720
supporter and he has a great interest in

1233
01:00:46,300 --> 01:00:44,600
the paranormal and 14 things and he's

1234
01:00:49,750 --> 01:00:46,310
written and done a lot of research on

1235
01:00:52,810 --> 01:00:49,760
her so we've promised them to come on

1236
01:00:54,580 --> 01:00:52,820
the air and in a month or so to talk

1237
01:00:56,680 --> 01:00:54,590
about that case because it's always

1238
01:00:58,870 --> 01:00:56,690
fascinated me and he's like the the main

1239
01:01:00,700 --> 01:00:58,880
you know honcho over there or are you

1240
01:01:01,870 --> 01:01:00,710
affiliated with the psychic news it

1241
01:01:04,480 --> 01:01:01,880
seems to me that I might have read

1242
01:01:07,600 --> 01:01:04,490
something about you in there um I'm not

1243
01:01:09,580 --> 01:01:07,610
affiliated but I've I've been in I've

1244
01:01:12,190 --> 01:01:09,590
had work published in it several times

1245
01:01:16,810 --> 01:01:12,200
yeah I I tried to get the the publisher

1246
01:01:18,280 --> 01:01:16,820
on the show and he promised me for later

1247
01:01:19,750 --> 01:01:18,290
in the year but he said he couldn't do

1248
01:01:23,140 --> 01:01:19,760
it at the moment they they have been

1249
01:01:25,120 --> 01:01:23,150
running that magazine for what seventy

1250
01:01:29,410 --> 01:01:25,130
or eighty eight years it started out as

1251
01:01:31,810 --> 01:01:29,420
a is a tabloid newspaper in fact I

1252
01:01:33,610 --> 01:01:31,820
remember when I am back in the 60s you

1253
01:01:36,370 --> 01:01:33,620
know getting a couple of copies and

1254
01:01:40,210 --> 01:01:36,380
advertising in there and and now it's a

1255
01:01:41,980 --> 01:01:40,220
really high gloss publication that carry

1256
01:01:44,020 --> 01:01:41,990
that carries articles and I was

1257
01:01:46,740 --> 01:01:44,030
surprised more than just on spiritualism

1258
01:01:48,970 --> 01:01:46,750
in fact they had an article on

1259
01:01:52,450 --> 01:01:48,980
cryptozoology in the in the last issue

1260
01:01:57,160 --> 01:01:52,460
and UFOs on the the cover so just like

1261
01:02:01,510 --> 01:01:57,170
the the ufology has progressed into the

1262
01:02:05,320 --> 01:02:01,520
spiritual areas the spiritualists that

1263
01:02:07,690 --> 01:02:05,330
people have motivated more in indeed

1264
01:02:09,640 --> 01:02:07,700
towards some of this other 14 of

1265
01:02:11,590 --> 01:02:09,650
phenomena of course they've been they've

1266
01:02:14,110 --> 01:02:11,600
been writing I remember in the 1950s

1267
01:02:15,400 --> 01:02:14,120
even reading you know articles that the

1268
01:02:17,710 --> 01:02:15,410
spiritualist groups were writing about

1269
01:02:19,810 --> 01:02:17,720
UFOs and things like then had their own

1270
01:02:24,060 --> 01:02:19,820
interpretation or are you familiar at

1271
01:02:26,470 --> 01:02:24,070
all with the work of Mark Macy yes yes

1272
01:02:30,880 --> 01:02:26,480
what can you describe that and tell us

1273
01:02:33,040 --> 01:02:30,890
what you think about that um so I forget

1274
01:02:37,780 --> 01:02:33,050
what he billed that he built a device

1275
01:02:40,930 --> 01:02:37,790
the spirit well he they take photographs

1276
01:02:45,580 --> 01:02:40,940
off the computer and a TV set okay yeah

1277
01:02:47,950 --> 01:02:45,590
well the larger movie yeah ventral

1278
01:02:52,900 --> 01:02:47,960
transcommunication so that would be when

1279
01:02:55,500 --> 01:02:52,910
you use cameras video recorders to you

1280
01:02:58,230 --> 01:02:55,510
know create evidence and the skull group

1281
01:03:02,140 --> 01:02:58,240
really they're the ones who kind of

1282
01:03:04,360 --> 01:03:02,150
really inspired the movement of ITC and

1283
01:03:07,860 --> 01:03:04,370
because they were creating video and

1284
01:03:11,680 --> 01:03:07,870
photo and and all of these artifacts

1285
01:03:14,530 --> 01:03:11,690
so mark macy built a device I think it's

1286
01:03:18,070 --> 01:03:14,540
called an illuminator and I believe he

1287
01:03:20,110 --> 01:03:18,080
was using polaroid film and I've talked

1288
01:03:21,880 --> 01:03:20,120
to several people who had their pictures

1289
01:03:23,950 --> 01:03:21,890
taken by him and said they said it was a

1290
01:03:25,930 --> 01:03:23,960
very bizarre experience and the images

1291
01:03:27,940 --> 01:03:25,940
you know they look like long exposures

1292
01:03:29,230 --> 01:03:27,950
are kind of blurry but it you can see

1293
01:03:31,420 --> 01:03:29,240
the person's face but it always looks

1294
01:03:33,610 --> 01:03:31,430
like there's another face kind of yes

1295
01:03:35,080 --> 01:03:33,620
yes that is in the mirror I've tried to

1296
01:03:37,510 --> 01:03:35,090
get him on the other program for the

1297
01:03:42,970 --> 01:03:37,520
longest time I I have met him on several

1298
01:03:46,420 --> 01:03:42,980
occasions in fact we did a conference in

1299
01:03:49,720 --> 01:03:46,430
New Age spiritual conference Oh a dozen

1300
01:03:52,150 --> 01:03:49,730
or more years ago and Colorado Springs

1301
01:03:54,340 --> 01:03:52,160
and he was one of the the speakers on

1302
01:03:56,890 --> 01:03:54,350
the program he lives out around there

1303
01:03:59,339 --> 01:03:56,900
and it's well they've also been

1304
01:04:03,849 --> 01:03:59,349
receiving you know messages on

1305
01:04:07,449 --> 01:04:03,859
answering machines mm-hmm of people who

1306
01:04:10,209 --> 01:04:07,459
have been you know deceased for you know

1307
01:04:12,219 --> 01:04:10,219
a number of days if not that longer in

1308
01:04:15,249 --> 01:04:12,229
fact I remember let's see there was an

1309
01:04:16,959 --> 01:04:15,259
actress by the name of gizelle Mackenzie

1310
01:04:20,199 --> 01:04:16,969
I believe her name was going back quite

1311
01:04:22,509 --> 01:04:20,209
a few years ago but when she was a

1312
01:04:24,339 --> 01:04:22,519
little girl she lived in a hotel or an

1313
01:04:26,169 --> 01:04:24,349
apartment building somewhere where they

1314
01:04:28,389 --> 01:04:26,179
still had a telephone switchboard

1315
01:04:30,069 --> 01:04:28,399
operator you know there was no direct

1316
01:04:33,489 --> 01:04:30,079
call she had to go through the

1317
01:04:35,979 --> 01:04:33,499
switchboard and one one night I guess

1318
01:04:37,839 --> 01:04:35,989
she was in maybe a you know eight or

1319
01:04:41,259 --> 01:04:37,849
nine or ten years old the phone rang

1320
01:04:43,479 --> 01:04:41,269
rather later night and it was the voice

1321
01:04:45,309 --> 01:04:43,489
of her grandmother I didn't have too

1322
01:04:48,669 --> 01:04:45,319
much to say but the to the efekta you

1323
01:04:50,169 --> 01:04:48,679
know like so long I'm gonna miss you and

1324
01:04:53,259 --> 01:04:50,179
so forth and so on and then the line

1325
01:04:55,539 --> 01:04:53,269
went dead well now she told her mother

1326
01:04:57,130 --> 01:04:55,549
about it and her mother had found that

1327
01:04:59,199 --> 01:04:57,140
or gotten a telegram that was way of

1328
01:05:00,929 --> 01:04:59,209
communicating in those days if somebody

1329
01:05:04,329 --> 01:05:00,939
had you know died in the family that

1330
01:05:06,099 --> 01:05:04,339
grandma had passed away around the same

1331
01:05:09,519 --> 01:05:06,109
time that's a telephone call came

1332
01:05:11,679 --> 01:05:09,529
through so they didn't know well maybe a

1333
01:05:13,389 --> 01:05:11,689
grandma knew she was gonna die maybe she

1334
01:05:15,219 --> 01:05:13,399
had been ill for a few days or something

1335
01:05:18,669 --> 01:05:15,229
like that and wanted to talk to her a

1336
01:05:23,289 --> 01:05:18,679
granddaughter so they contacted the the

1337
01:05:25,569 --> 01:05:23,299
front desk the the next day to to see

1338
01:05:28,239 --> 01:05:25,579
you know what time the phone call came

1339
01:05:30,399 --> 01:05:28,249
through and and and and so forth and the

1340
01:05:32,769 --> 01:05:30,409
operator and the switchboard insisted

1341
01:05:34,899 --> 01:05:32,779
that they had no not received any call

1342
01:05:36,489 --> 01:05:34,909
to that particular apartment there there

1343
01:05:39,099 --> 01:05:36,499
are a couple of well in fact I think

1344
01:05:40,509 --> 01:05:39,109
there's a whole book written I tend to

1345
01:05:42,339 --> 01:05:40,519
remember who the author is is a whole

1346
01:05:45,729 --> 01:05:42,349
book written on telephone communications

1347
01:05:48,069 --> 01:05:45,739
from phone calls phone calls by the from

1348
01:05:49,779 --> 01:05:48,079
the dad one of the authors was the late

1349
01:05:52,419 --> 01:05:49,789
D Scott Rogo

1350
01:05:54,489 --> 01:05:52,429
he's got Robbo that's an excellent book

1351
01:05:57,759 --> 01:05:54,499
and I I always was surprised that there

1352
01:06:01,449 --> 01:05:57,769
really was no follow up on that

1353
01:06:03,279 --> 01:06:01,459
well Rogo passed away unfortunately he

1354
01:06:05,620 --> 01:06:03,289
was murdered not too long after that

1355
01:06:09,870 --> 01:06:05,630
book came out that's what I remember yes

1356
01:06:13,090 --> 01:06:09,880
now what what would you say shannon is

1357
01:06:14,560 --> 01:06:13,100
are there any new forms of communicate

1358
01:06:16,660 --> 01:06:14,570
that have come to your attention and we

1359
01:06:18,490 --> 01:06:16,670
talked about the messages coming over

1360
01:06:20,830 --> 01:06:18,500
the TV set and the computer and all is

1361
01:06:23,320 --> 01:06:20,840
there anything else that you're aware of

1362
01:06:26,740 --> 01:06:23,330
where this is progressing I mean does it

1363
01:06:29,460 --> 01:06:26,750
seem like the ability to communicate

1364
01:06:33,040 --> 01:06:29,470
from over there to over here is

1365
01:06:35,020 --> 01:06:33,050
improving or is it as a at a standstill

1366
01:06:38,380 --> 01:06:35,030
like it has seemed to be for over a

1367
01:06:40,990 --> 01:06:38,390
hundred years um no there is a lot of

1368
01:06:43,030 --> 01:06:41,000
interest in using technology as there

1369
01:06:45,610 --> 01:06:43,040
always has been with spiritualism but

1370
01:06:48,510 --> 01:06:45,620
you know there's all these new apps out

1371
01:06:55,270 --> 01:06:48,520
you know they have Ghost Box apps and

1372
01:06:58,720 --> 01:06:55,280
you know different you know there's

1373
01:07:00,910 --> 01:06:58,730
people who do CAPTCHA they you know the

1374
01:07:02,380 --> 01:07:00,920
CAPTCHA that like you get a phrase or

1375
01:07:04,210 --> 01:07:02,390
you know to prove that you're not a

1376
01:07:05,980 --> 01:07:04,220
robot you know when you're when you're

1377
01:07:11,500 --> 01:07:05,990
it's like a security measure when you're

1378
01:07:13,510 --> 01:07:11,510
on the web well I know people who've

1379
01:07:17,200 --> 01:07:13,520
gotten messages through CAPTCHAs and

1380
01:07:19,120 --> 01:07:17,210
they save them and there's also the you

1381
01:07:21,850 --> 01:07:19,130
know the orb photography movement which

1382
01:07:23,620 --> 01:07:21,860
I would say is the spirit photography of

1383
01:07:26,850 --> 01:07:23,630
today and there's a lot of serious

1384
01:07:30,550 --> 01:07:26,860
practitioners doing a lot of different

1385
01:07:32,890 --> 01:07:30,560
work with orbs and it's some of it's

1386
01:07:36,310 --> 01:07:32,900
pretty interesting well unless would

1387
01:07:37,840 --> 01:07:36,320
know about that are you into orbs at all

1388
01:07:40,390 --> 01:07:37,850
I mean I know a lot of people think that

1389
01:07:43,750 --> 01:07:40,400
they're a dust on the lens and so forth

1390
01:07:48,250 --> 01:07:43,760
now I I have a very interesting story to

1391
01:07:54,150 --> 01:07:48,260
tell you guys I was in Sedona Arizona

1392
01:07:57,430 --> 01:07:54,160
and I met up with a lady there who

1393
01:08:01,620 --> 01:07:57,440
claimed to have a lot of pictures of

1394
01:08:07,780 --> 01:08:01,630
orbs and so I went out to her place and

1395
01:08:11,740 --> 01:08:07,790
it's overlooks a canyon and so she says

1396
01:08:15,250 --> 01:08:11,750
now I can tell you might not see it but

1397
01:08:17,800 --> 01:08:15,260
I can tell when an orb is going to

1398
01:08:21,820 --> 01:08:17,810
appear and what I'll do is I'll just

1399
01:08:24,070 --> 01:08:21,830
start clicking my camera so I said okay

1400
01:08:25,870 --> 01:08:24,080
I want to see what's gonna go on so she

1401
01:08:27,069 --> 01:08:25,880
has a digital cameras which we can you

1402
01:08:31,959 --> 01:08:27,079
know download

1403
01:08:33,269 --> 01:08:31,969
see right away so she sits that yeah she

1404
01:08:36,220 --> 01:08:33,279
stands at the corner of her house

1405
01:08:39,309 --> 01:08:36,230
overlooking the canyon and then she says

1406
01:08:42,129 --> 01:08:39,319
okay I'm gonna start taking pictures and

1407
01:08:44,260 --> 01:08:42,139
she took a bunch of pictures and I was

1408
01:08:48,780 --> 01:08:44,270
in one of the pictures okay that she

1409
01:08:52,569 --> 01:08:48,790
took she started scanning across and

1410
01:08:54,370 --> 01:08:52,579
there was an orb over my head now this

1411
01:08:58,569 --> 01:08:54,380
was an interesting or because it had

1412
01:09:01,209 --> 01:08:58,579
like a little red cap on it and since

1413
01:09:03,729 --> 01:09:01,219
she was taking one picture right after

1414
01:09:06,819 --> 01:09:03,739
the next you could see that little red

1415
01:09:10,059 --> 01:09:06,829
cap move okay from one position to the

1416
01:09:12,849 --> 01:09:10,069
next position but more fascinating was

1417
01:09:17,499 --> 01:09:12,859
some of the shots that she took and she

1418
01:09:20,229 --> 01:09:17,509
would blow it up on her computer enlarge

1419
01:09:22,689 --> 01:09:20,239
the size and that's what really blew me

1420
01:09:27,519 --> 01:09:22,699
away because you know what greys look

1421
01:09:29,950 --> 01:09:27,529
like guys right well they were they were

1422
01:09:31,599 --> 01:09:29,960
in the they were in the orb and it's

1423
01:09:34,479 --> 01:09:31,609
like they were looking through a portal

1424
01:09:36,220 --> 01:09:34,489
and one was like looking straight ahead

1425
01:09:37,809 --> 01:09:36,230
another one behind was looking in

1426
01:09:40,180 --> 01:09:37,819
another direction and then there was a

1427
01:09:43,419 --> 01:09:40,190
third one that was still looking still

1428
01:09:47,049 --> 01:09:43,429
in another direction that was the most

1429
01:09:50,559 --> 01:09:47,059
fascinating night talking about orbs and

1430
01:09:56,530 --> 01:09:50,569
yeah it seems like orbs have become even

1431
01:09:59,049 --> 01:09:56,540
more you know prevalent then then your

1432
01:10:03,160 --> 01:09:59,059
standard you know flying saucer type of

1433
01:10:06,189 --> 01:10:03,170
a and and sedona is the place to go if

1434
01:10:08,290 --> 01:10:06,199
you want to have a UFO or some kind of

1435
01:10:11,649 --> 01:10:08,300
strange experience i I know I've had a

1436
01:10:13,660 --> 01:10:11,659
couple of really bizarre synchronicities

1437
01:10:16,120 --> 01:10:13,670
that we that we've talked about on the

1438
01:10:20,229 --> 01:10:16,130
air here I mean it all centers around

1439
01:10:21,970 --> 01:10:20,239
the coffee pot which is the local place

1440
01:10:24,549 --> 01:10:21,980
to get your omelets and coffee and go to

1441
01:10:26,770 --> 01:10:24,559
brunch kind of all kinds of strange well

1442
01:10:29,560 --> 01:10:26,780
it's important it's a vortex it's one of

1443
01:10:32,319 --> 01:10:29,570
the the vortex areas and right near the

1444
01:10:34,569 --> 01:10:32,329
the airport there and strange things

1445
01:10:37,540 --> 01:10:34,579
seem to happen in the parking lot I I

1446
01:10:38,740 --> 01:10:37,550
just you know it again it just boggles

1447
01:10:40,330 --> 01:10:38,750
the mind

1448
01:10:45,840 --> 01:10:40,340
the

1449
01:10:48,940 --> 01:10:45,850
paranormal and and synchronicities but

1450
01:10:50,650 --> 01:10:48,950
certainly as Sedona there's a good

1451
01:10:54,610 --> 01:10:50,660
chance you might have some sort of a

1452
01:10:56,110 --> 01:10:54,620
weird experience there was a ranch let

1453
01:10:58,210 --> 01:10:56,120
me interrupt him we have to go to our

1454
01:11:03,490 --> 01:10:58,220
break here so we'll be right back it's

1455
01:11:05,530 --> 01:11:03,500
the French I guess I guess I guess maybe

1456
01:11:07,600 --> 01:11:05,540
we have a little bit longer than that

1457
01:11:14,440 --> 01:11:07,610
without it we did we now just hit the

1458
01:11:16,840 --> 01:11:14,450
one minute mark we have a fellow there

1459
01:11:18,220 --> 01:11:16,850
who of course Bill Hamilton was a good

1460
01:11:22,120 --> 01:11:18,230
friend of mine we published them and his

1461
01:11:23,650 --> 01:11:22,130
work and I've done interviews with other

1462
01:11:26,980 --> 01:11:23,660
people who live in town there who have

1463
01:11:29,500 --> 01:11:26,990
had a have a great many are just very

1464
01:11:34,270 --> 01:11:29,510
strange experiences and a number of a

1465
01:11:36,400 --> 01:11:34,280
paranormal the photographs just are

1466
01:11:38,070 --> 01:11:36,410
amazing I mean everybody it seems that

1467
01:11:42,190 --> 01:11:38,080
picks up a camera see something unusual

1468
01:11:45,850 --> 01:11:42,200
you got to go to our YouTube site miss

1469
01:11:48,550 --> 01:11:45,860
UFO secret files and type in the Sedona

1470
01:11:50,200 --> 01:11:48,560
there and you'll find some fascinating

1471
01:11:54,100 --> 01:11:50,210
interviews that we've done in the past

1472
01:11:56,680 --> 01:11:54,110
now back to exploring the bizarre with

1473
01:11:59,680 --> 01:11:56,690
two of the most electrifying researchers

1474
01:12:04,810 --> 01:11:59,690
in the Paranoid your hosts Timothy

1475
01:12:12,020 --> 01:12:08,120
back for the final segment of explore in

1476
01:12:14,450 --> 01:12:12,030
the bazaar and Shannon I wanted to say

1477
01:12:19,100 --> 01:12:14,460
that from the photographs that that I've

1478
01:12:23,810 --> 01:12:19,110
seen so far I've really been enjoying

1479
01:12:31,030 --> 01:12:23,820
them because even though that a lot of

1480
01:12:33,890 --> 01:12:31,040
these photographs really do seem to show

1481
01:12:35,960 --> 01:12:33,900
anomalous things you don't really have

1482
01:12:37,340 --> 01:12:35,970
an axe to grind I mean you know your

1483
01:12:39,800 --> 01:12:37,350
attitude is like you know this is a

1484
01:12:41,180 --> 01:12:39,810
photograph you know I you could you know

1485
01:12:46,540 --> 01:12:41,190
believe it or not believe it I don't

1486
01:12:50,000 --> 01:12:46,550
care yeah I guess uh and that that angle

1487
01:12:51,830 --> 01:12:50,010
frustrates some people but I really do

1488
01:12:55,070 --> 01:12:51,840
think it's the only way to go because

1489
01:12:58,100 --> 01:12:55,080
you know these experiences are partially

1490
01:13:00,950 --> 01:12:58,110
interior as well so there's always an

1491
01:13:04,430 --> 01:13:00,960
element that I that obviously I cannot

1492
01:13:06,920 --> 01:13:04,440
photograph and so the photographs kind

1493
01:13:09,590 --> 01:13:06,930
of resonate with the experience but

1494
01:13:12,980 --> 01:13:09,600
they're not exactly documenting the

1495
01:13:15,260 --> 01:13:12,990
whole thing and I've had such strange

1496
01:13:17,450 --> 01:13:15,270
synchronicities um with it with the

1497
01:13:19,520 --> 01:13:17,460
pictures and you know to a skeptic that

1498
01:13:21,770 --> 01:13:19,530
won't always be just a coincidence and

1499
01:13:25,940 --> 01:13:21,780
you know to a believer that would always

1500
01:13:28,160 --> 01:13:25,950
be incredibly meaningful so I'm not and

1501
01:13:29,870 --> 01:13:28,170
I I just feel like it's a waste of time

1502
01:13:31,610 --> 01:13:29,880
because these experiences unless

1503
01:13:33,440 --> 01:13:31,620
somebody has a personal experience

1504
01:13:35,300 --> 01:13:33,450
they're not going to become a believer

1505
01:13:40,280 --> 01:13:35,310
just because of my photographs you know

1506
01:13:41,960 --> 01:13:40,290
and and vice versa so I guess it it took

1507
01:13:44,090 --> 01:13:41,970
me a while to get to that place where I

1508
01:13:48,140 --> 01:13:44,100
just keep it open-ended but I feel very

1509
01:13:51,110 --> 01:13:48,150
comfortable there well I appreciate that

1510
01:13:54,500 --> 01:13:51,120
because I mean anymore it seems like

1511
01:13:56,270 --> 01:13:54,510
that you know you see you see on the

1512
01:13:58,310 --> 01:13:56,280
news I mean rather than reporting the

1513
01:14:00,050 --> 01:13:58,320
news everybody is telling you you know

1514
01:14:06,040 --> 01:14:00,060
like what what they think the news

1515
01:14:11,450 --> 01:14:09,190
Monteux it's it's it's just becomes so I

1516
01:14:14,420 --> 01:14:11,460
can't I can't think of the right word

1517
01:14:16,919 --> 01:14:14,430
here but you know with your photographs

1518
01:14:20,819 --> 01:14:16,929
I mean you're just presenting them as

1519
01:14:23,609 --> 01:14:20,829
they are and you you let the me let the

1520
01:14:27,810 --> 01:14:23,619
readers make up their own mind now out

1521
01:14:31,489 --> 01:14:27,820
of the the photographs that you have

1522
01:14:35,219 --> 01:14:31,499
taken and besides the the guy with the

1523
01:14:37,500 --> 01:14:35,229
the elongated hand can you give us

1524
01:14:39,620 --> 01:14:37,510
another example of a a situation that

1525
01:14:41,969 --> 01:14:39,630
that you took pictures of that you know

1526
01:14:45,060 --> 01:14:41,979
during the time you were like wow this

1527
01:14:48,270 --> 01:14:45,070
is just really bizarre yes actually

1528
01:14:50,100 --> 01:14:48,280
there's um and this is on my site you

1529
01:14:52,319 --> 01:14:50,110
know that I only have small samples of

1530
01:14:53,879 --> 01:14:52,329
the images on the site I do have

1531
01:14:57,449 --> 01:14:53,889
hundreds of pictures that will be in the

1532
01:14:59,879 --> 01:14:57,459
book but so this was happening with the

1533
01:15:02,549 --> 01:14:59,889
same medium with the enlarged hand

1534
01:15:06,479 --> 01:15:02,559
Gordon and gar forth I took some

1535
01:15:08,640 --> 01:15:06,489
pictures of him in a trance it was kind

1536
01:15:10,350 --> 01:15:08,650
of like an impromptu trance and and the

1537
01:15:13,589 --> 01:15:10,360
the room was only lit by a green

1538
01:15:16,799 --> 01:15:13,599
security light so my exposures were very

1539
01:15:19,259 --> 01:15:16,809
long and he said his face was going to

1540
01:15:21,060 --> 01:15:19,269
change shape and I took you know a bunch

1541
01:15:22,859 --> 01:15:21,070
of exposures and obviously you know

1542
01:15:26,699 --> 01:15:22,869
being long exposure there's some blur

1543
01:15:28,020 --> 01:15:26,709
and but in every picture he looked in

1544
01:15:30,750 --> 01:15:28,030
many of them he looked like a different

1545
01:15:32,969 --> 01:15:30,760
different people and there was one in

1546
01:15:35,009 --> 01:15:32,979
particular where he looked as if he's

1547
01:15:38,040 --> 01:15:35,019
wearing glasses and had like this tiny

1548
01:15:39,239 --> 01:15:38,050
mustache and I was actually afraid to

1549
01:15:41,699 --> 01:15:39,249
show him this picture because I thought

1550
01:15:43,109 --> 01:15:41,709
the mustache looked a little bit too too

1551
01:15:46,649 --> 01:15:43,119
uncomfortably close to like a Hitler

1552
01:15:48,929 --> 01:15:46,659
esque mustache and I thought oh god I

1553
01:15:51,540 --> 01:15:48,939
can't show him this but I but I did and

1554
01:15:53,549 --> 01:15:51,550
he said oh that's my favorite image and

1555
01:15:55,259 --> 01:15:53,559
I thought wow really why does he like

1556
01:15:58,020 --> 01:15:55,269
this picture that I think it's a little

1557
01:15:59,759 --> 01:15:58,030
bit spooky and then he told me he took

1558
01:16:01,410 --> 01:15:59,769
me back to his home and showed me a

1559
01:16:04,049 --> 01:16:01,420
picture of his great-grandfather and

1560
01:16:05,729 --> 01:16:04,059
it's actually him looking as if he's the

1561
01:16:08,339 --> 01:16:05,739
spitting image of his great-grandfather

1562
01:16:10,830 --> 01:16:08,349
and on my site under physical mediumship

1563
01:16:13,199 --> 01:16:10,840
I have them paired together so you can

1564
01:16:15,629 --> 01:16:13,209
see this bizarre photographic

1565
01:16:17,489 --> 01:16:15,639
synchronicity that there was no way I

1566
01:16:20,279 --> 01:16:17,499
could create that was a function of the

1567
01:16:23,640 --> 01:16:20,289
shutter this is what put up some of

1568
01:16:25,919 --> 01:16:23,650
those shots on our YouTube channel we

1569
01:16:29,489 --> 01:16:25,929
will have that up in a couple of days

1570
01:16:30,870 --> 01:16:29,499
the YouTube version of this on mr. ufos

1571
01:16:33,920 --> 01:16:30,880
secret

1572
01:16:36,960 --> 01:16:33,930
files we have five or six thousand

1573
01:16:39,300 --> 01:16:36,970
subscribers through our show over there

1574
01:16:42,960 --> 01:16:39,310
and we always had a little visual to it

1575
01:16:45,840 --> 01:16:42,970
since it is YouTube not not a radio per

1576
01:16:49,710 --> 01:16:45,850
se anyway kids I'm sorry go ahead

1577
01:16:51,810 --> 01:16:49,720
oh yeah so I mean so I call that like a

1578
01:16:54,150 --> 01:16:51,820
photographic synchronicity and I've had

1579
01:16:56,430 --> 01:16:54,160
many of those where it's this odd

1580
01:16:58,920 --> 01:16:56,440
experience where the process kind of

1581
01:17:01,650 --> 01:16:58,930
resonates with the invisible experience

1582
01:17:04,890 --> 01:17:01,660
that I'm being told is happening but I

1583
01:17:08,640 --> 01:17:04,900
can't see with my eyes now are using a

1584
01:17:11,790 --> 01:17:08,650
film or digital cameras now I'm using

1585
01:17:14,910 --> 01:17:11,800
digital but I did begin shooting film so

1586
01:17:17,760 --> 01:17:14,920
I've done both and I think either is a

1587
01:17:19,740 --> 01:17:17,770
worthy endeavor I've also used infrared

1588
01:17:24,300 --> 01:17:19,750
cameras

1589
01:17:26,220 --> 01:17:24,310
been kind of interested in maybe playing

1590
01:17:28,710 --> 01:17:26,230
around with that but for the most part

1591
01:17:31,290 --> 01:17:28,720
I'm just with a regular 35 millimeter

1592
01:17:33,030 --> 01:17:31,300
professional camera and a tripod yeah

1593
01:17:34,230 --> 01:17:33,040
remember let's remember there used to be

1594
01:17:37,830 --> 01:17:34,240
a fellow who lives out there in

1595
01:17:41,220 --> 01:17:37,840
California Arnold that constable I think

1596
01:17:43,800 --> 01:17:41,230
it was who took a photographs of the the

1597
01:17:46,070 --> 01:17:43,810
sky in the desert and and all these

1598
01:17:49,740 --> 01:17:46,080
weird well he called them space animals

1599
01:17:52,140 --> 01:17:49,750
would appear oh yeah I'm not familiar

1600
01:17:54,720 --> 01:17:52,150
with him actually but I know of other

1601
01:17:57,360 --> 01:17:54,730
people that have taken pictures you know

1602
01:18:01,920 --> 01:17:57,370
using various types of cameras infrared

1603
01:18:04,320 --> 01:18:01,930
for instance is very you'll if you look

1604
01:18:08,280 --> 01:18:04,330
through like a video camera through the

1605
01:18:11,460 --> 01:18:08,290
eyepiece it it records an infrared it'll

1606
01:18:14,280 --> 01:18:11,470
it'll it'll show you infrared images and

1607
01:18:15,810 --> 01:18:14,290
so you can actually see things that you

1608
01:18:18,630 --> 01:18:15,820
wouldn't normally see with your naked

1609
01:18:22,200 --> 01:18:18,640
eye so there's there's a lot of ways to

1610
01:18:24,470 --> 01:18:22,210
do these things and I'm sure that you

1611
01:18:27,330 --> 01:18:24,480
know either using a digital camera or a

1612
01:18:30,110 --> 01:18:27,340
photographic the the old style as they

1613
01:18:33,000 --> 01:18:30,120
say would produce some interesting

1614
01:18:35,490 --> 01:18:33,010
effects for sure what what about these

1615
01:18:39,360 --> 01:18:35,500
nighttime photographs now that have been

1616
01:18:42,030 --> 01:18:39,370
taken through the oh the I call them

1617
01:18:44,399 --> 01:18:42,040
opera night vision night vision yeah

1618
01:18:46,589 --> 01:18:44,409
yeah yeah those

1619
01:18:49,259 --> 01:18:46,599
those are very interesting and and once

1620
01:18:52,199 --> 01:18:49,269
again you know you're seeing triangular

1621
01:18:55,350 --> 01:18:52,209
craft you know you're seeing things that

1622
01:18:57,419 --> 01:18:55,360
are you know going along at a very high

1623
01:18:59,879 --> 01:18:57,429
high rate of speed and then you know

1624
01:19:02,580 --> 01:18:59,889
doing a right angle turn which is you

1625
01:19:06,540 --> 01:19:02,590
know any kind of humanoid in there would

1626
01:19:11,250 --> 01:19:06,550
would have been mush help from some of

1627
01:19:14,989 --> 01:19:11,260
the descriptions they may be Bush we've

1628
01:19:19,290 --> 01:19:14,999
had we've had the Pillsbury Doughboy

1629
01:19:21,089 --> 01:19:19,300
that was seen a shell and tire and back

1630
01:19:24,989 --> 01:19:21,099
Tim wasn't it in in Italy or France

1631
01:19:28,319 --> 01:19:24,999
during the big flap in 1954 and a couple

1632
01:19:30,120 --> 01:19:28,329
of a weird little bump in humanoids that

1633
01:19:33,989 --> 01:19:30,130
were there on the railroad track that

1634
01:19:38,299 --> 01:19:33,999
looked like some of these mo seas and

1635
01:19:46,290 --> 01:19:42,330
almost like watch walking trash bins so

1636
01:19:48,709 --> 01:19:46,300
very very peculiar indeed have you seen

1637
01:19:52,259 --> 01:19:48,719
anything though through the night vision

1638
01:19:55,229 --> 01:19:52,269
yeah I actually have it was a triangular

1639
01:19:57,899 --> 01:19:55,239
craft it was just basically points of

1640
01:20:00,989 --> 01:19:57,909
light that were connected you couldn't

1641
01:20:04,290 --> 01:20:00,999
see it was at a pretty high altitude and

1642
01:20:06,779 --> 01:20:04,300
and the way it was traveling and the

1643
01:20:08,850 --> 01:20:06,789
speed it was traveling again you'd have

1644
01:20:10,770 --> 01:20:08,860
to it wasn't a satellite because we

1645
01:20:13,859 --> 01:20:10,780
checked the you can there's a site you

1646
01:20:16,350 --> 01:20:13,869
can go to to check satellite when they

1647
01:20:21,870 --> 01:20:16,360
come through etc and then it wasn't that

1648
01:20:24,629 --> 01:20:21,880
so through a process of you know this is

1649
01:20:27,540 --> 01:20:24,639
it isn't that so it's got to be this

1650
01:20:30,239 --> 01:20:27,550
type of a thing so now have you you know

1651
01:20:33,989 --> 01:20:30,249
we've talked a night of tonight about

1652
01:20:35,699 --> 01:20:33,999
them ectoplasm and taking photographs in

1653
01:20:37,679 --> 01:20:35,709
the science room have you ever taken

1654
01:20:39,270 --> 01:20:37,689
pictures of anything and they had to

1655
01:20:43,529 --> 01:20:39,280
come out where you couldn't explain what

1656
01:20:46,770 --> 01:20:43,539
was on the on the film myself no but

1657
01:20:50,759 --> 01:20:46,780
I've gotten photographs from people that

1658
01:20:53,399 --> 01:20:50,769
have had experiences and it does look

1659
01:20:58,260 --> 01:20:53,409
like if you want to call it ectoplasm

1660
01:21:00,060 --> 01:20:58,270
that type of a photograph you know

1661
01:21:03,090 --> 01:21:00,070
by the way one one little factoid about

1662
01:21:05,160 --> 01:21:03,100
ectoplasm you know there was a gentleman

1663
01:21:07,890 --> 01:21:05,170
I guess in France that coined the phrase

1664
01:21:08,970 --> 01:21:07,900
Richter technique was his name Shannon I

1665
01:21:11,250 --> 01:21:08,980
don't know if you're familiar with him

1666
01:21:13,680 --> 01:21:11,260
yeah yeah Charles rachet yeah Charles

1667
01:21:19,980 --> 01:21:13,690
rachet yeah they don't speak French very

1668
01:21:22,560 --> 01:21:19,990
well but she do it all right away and

1669
01:21:26,250 --> 01:21:22,570
yeah he was kind of an interesting

1670
01:21:28,770 --> 01:21:26,260
character and I don't know if you ever

1671
01:21:31,350 --> 01:21:28,780
saw them the original movie topper with

1672
01:21:34,380 --> 01:21:31,360
Cary Grant net but that's a great movie

1673
01:21:38,610 --> 01:21:34,390
yeah especially when he drank two

1674
01:21:40,620 --> 01:21:38,620
martinis you know it's interesting

1675
01:21:42,690 --> 01:21:40,630
because they used the term ectoplasm in

1676
01:21:48,420 --> 01:21:42,700
that movie good night that movie was

1677
01:21:51,270 --> 01:21:48,430
made in 1937 yeah Wow yeah so it's a

1678
01:21:54,060 --> 01:21:51,280
great movie it's funny as hell yeah yeah

1679
01:21:56,250 --> 01:21:54,070
well yeah you know I was looking at here

1680
01:22:00,720 --> 01:21:56,260
in fact in the one of the recent issues

1681
01:22:02,130 --> 01:22:00,730
of the of the psychic news and there's a

1682
01:22:03,090 --> 01:22:02,140
fellow again I've tried to get him on

1683
01:22:04,620 --> 01:22:03,100
the program

1684
01:22:07,400 --> 01:22:04,630
I hope do you have none in the future

1685
01:22:10,590 --> 01:22:07,410
Gary Schwartz who lives I think in

1686
01:22:13,440 --> 01:22:10,600
either in Arizona or California who's

1687
01:22:15,330 --> 01:22:13,450
been working building some sort of

1688
01:22:17,820 --> 01:22:15,340
device or telephone to talk to the other

1689
01:22:25,290 --> 01:22:17,830
side have you researched his work at all

1690
01:22:27,660 --> 01:22:25,300
oh you take this one oh well I I know a

1691
01:22:30,060 --> 01:22:27,670
lot of people who know his work and he

1692
01:22:33,330 --> 01:22:30,070
actually I think he in the 90s he also

1693
01:22:35,610 --> 01:22:33,340
did a study on mediums and I know

1694
01:22:37,680 --> 01:22:35,620
several of the mediums who are in that

1695
01:22:40,380 --> 01:22:37,690
study but yes I forget what it's called

1696
01:22:42,780 --> 01:22:40,390
it's some kind of a phone device to talk

1697
01:22:45,290 --> 01:22:42,790
to the dead well addict into the soul

1698
01:22:48,540 --> 01:22:45,300
phone yeah soul phone the soul phone

1699
01:22:51,620 --> 01:22:48,550
gotta have one of those yeah in fact his

1700
01:22:54,570 --> 01:22:51,630
I would say partner there are at least a

1701
01:22:58,290 --> 01:22:54,580
fellow that he's worked with in the past

1702
01:23:01,350 --> 01:22:58,300
Paul Davis has been on our program and

1703
01:23:04,050 --> 01:23:01,360
he wrote a book and did a videotape

1704
01:23:06,120 --> 01:23:04,060
recently about are you familiar with

1705
01:23:09,260 --> 01:23:06,130
forry ackerman who used to publish a

1706
01:23:11,770 --> 01:23:09,270
Famous Monsters magazine and he was a

1707
01:23:16,330 --> 01:23:11,780
devout atheist

1708
01:23:17,379 --> 01:23:16,340
but apparently after his passing you

1709
01:23:19,600 --> 01:23:17,389
know he was a friend of all these

1710
01:23:21,310 --> 01:23:19,610
magicians and all who who think that

1711
01:23:23,319 --> 01:23:21,320
everything that happens in the seance

1712
01:23:26,680 --> 01:23:23,329
room or is it part of spiritualism or

1713
01:23:29,379 --> 01:23:26,690
UFOs is a total fraud apparently after

1714
01:23:34,629 --> 01:23:29,389
his passing he did manage to come back

1715
01:23:36,010 --> 01:23:34,639
and improve proof of survival I know do

1716
01:23:38,560 --> 01:23:36,020
you think I mean channa would you say

1717
01:23:40,810 --> 01:23:38,570
there is proof of survival I mean what

1718
01:23:44,919 --> 01:23:40,820
does this all mean when you you shake it

1719
01:23:47,919 --> 01:23:44,929
up and and and put it down in front of

1720
01:23:54,549 --> 01:23:47,929
you what what is the the end results

1721
01:23:56,649 --> 01:23:54,559
here I do think that there is a lot of

1722
01:24:01,330 --> 01:23:56,659
evidence that mediums are getting

1723
01:24:03,879 --> 01:24:01,340
information and you know that they could

1724
01:24:08,950 --> 01:24:03,889
not have known and they're having the

1725
01:24:11,260 --> 01:24:08,960
experience for themselves that it seems

1726
01:24:12,850 --> 01:24:11,270
to be spirits from the dead I don't know

1727
01:24:15,160 --> 01:24:12,860
if you know the work of Julie by she'll

1728
01:24:17,859 --> 01:24:15,170
at the wind bridge Institute but they're

1729
01:24:20,049 --> 01:24:17,869
doing them you know double-blind studies

1730
01:24:22,660 --> 01:24:20,059
on the information mediums bring forth

1731
01:24:25,419 --> 01:24:22,670
in readings and it's pretty it's pretty

1732
01:24:26,919 --> 01:24:25,429
compelling and I think they're doing a

1733
01:24:30,129 --> 01:24:26,929
good job at saying hey there's

1734
01:24:32,319 --> 01:24:30,139
information coming here I've talked to

1735
01:24:34,180 --> 01:24:32,329
parapsychology information coming from

1736
01:24:36,310 --> 01:24:34,190
right like I've talked to pair of

1737
01:24:38,589 --> 01:24:36,320
psychologists who believe that oh it's

1738
01:24:40,330 --> 01:24:38,599
just psychic you know they're getting

1739
01:24:42,669 --> 01:24:40,340
the information from your brain and then

1740
01:24:46,600 --> 01:24:42,679
they're assigning the agency to spirits

1741
01:24:48,220 --> 01:24:46,610
in their own you know and then but you

1742
01:24:50,140 --> 01:24:48,230
talk to mediums and they say they're

1743
01:24:51,430 --> 01:24:50,150
absolutely sure with on the beyond a

1744
01:24:55,000 --> 01:24:51,440
shadow of a doubt that they're speaking

1745
01:24:55,990 --> 01:24:55,010
to spirits of the dead so you know I

1746
01:24:58,600 --> 01:24:56,000
don't know it's still being debated

1747
01:25:00,700 --> 01:24:58,610
what's exactly going on yeah of course

1748
01:25:02,919 --> 01:25:00,710
they are but a year that's been another

1749
01:25:05,430 --> 01:25:02,929
so many times Paulie you know he is of

1750
01:25:08,290 --> 01:25:05,440
the opinion that this is all kind of a

1751
01:25:10,120 --> 01:25:08,300
multi-dimensional a layer and that some

1752
01:25:12,910 --> 01:25:10,130
of these voices in this information are

1753
01:25:14,979 --> 01:25:12,920
are coming from somewhere else but it

1754
01:25:18,040 --> 01:25:14,989
doesn't necessarily mean that they have

1755
01:25:21,580 --> 01:25:18,050
to be you know this your deceased aunt

1756
01:25:23,979 --> 01:25:21,590
or uncle or or somebody else

1757
01:25:26,140 --> 01:25:23,989
well how prevalent would you say the

1758
01:25:28,600 --> 01:25:26,150
fraud is

1759
01:25:33,220 --> 01:25:28,610
in the Spiritualist the field today

1760
01:25:35,529 --> 01:25:33,230
because I remember back in the 1960s I

1761
01:25:37,689 --> 01:25:35,539
saw a film that was made I think a camp

1762
01:25:41,859 --> 01:25:37,699
chesterfield where they had put in

1763
01:25:43,299 --> 01:25:41,869
infrared cameras and you know the the

1764
01:25:46,479 --> 01:25:43,309
spirit behind the curtain and the

1765
01:25:51,430 --> 01:25:46,489
ectoplasm was really some other you know

1766
01:25:52,479 --> 01:25:51,440
medium opposing is some great Indian

1767
01:25:55,870 --> 01:25:52,489
from the other side

1768
01:25:59,470 --> 01:25:55,880
yes that's um there was a great book

1769
01:26:02,740 --> 01:25:59,480
written about that that whole debacle

1770
01:26:05,020 --> 01:26:02,750
it's called the psychic mafia by Allen

1771
01:26:07,930 --> 01:26:05,030
Spragg it and my friend William Rauscher

1772
01:26:12,010 --> 01:26:07,940
wrote the foreword it was really great

1773
01:26:13,540 --> 01:26:12,020
read I highly recommend it but um as far

1774
01:26:15,490 --> 01:26:13,550
as fraud you're definitely gonna find a

1775
01:26:18,850 --> 01:26:15,500
lot more fraud when you get into the

1776
01:26:22,209 --> 01:26:18,860
physical mediumship seances and but as

1777
01:26:24,970 --> 01:26:22,219
far as clairvoyant goes you know maybe

1778
01:26:27,430 --> 01:26:24,980
there's some mediums who are I I found

1779
01:26:29,620 --> 01:26:27,440
mostly sincere practitioners who really

1780
01:26:32,950 --> 01:26:29,630
believe what they're doing yes uh-huh

1781
01:26:34,750 --> 01:26:32,960
and yeah yeah I would

1782
01:26:37,830 --> 01:26:34,760
now how about some of these great

1783
01:26:42,879 --> 01:26:37,840
mediums of the the past like home and

1784
01:26:46,390 --> 01:26:42,889
that were supposed to levitate and move

1785
01:26:49,770 --> 01:26:46,400
about the room and live seance tables

1786
01:26:53,319 --> 01:26:49,780
without the you know any any form of

1787
01:26:55,200 --> 01:26:53,329
chicanery being involved I mean do you

1788
01:26:58,359 --> 01:26:55,210
think a lot of this was a you know

1789
01:27:01,390 --> 01:26:58,369
honest the mediumship or was it a

1790
01:27:04,859 --> 01:27:01,400
trickery and a form of entertainment to

1791
01:27:07,359 --> 01:27:04,869
some degree um I'm kind of a both/and

1792
01:27:09,370 --> 01:27:07,369
person I think sometimes there's a term

1793
01:27:11,500 --> 01:27:09,380
in spiritualism called mixed mediumship

1794
01:27:14,080 --> 01:27:11,510
and you know the famous medium you

1795
01:27:18,189 --> 01:27:14,090
seppia Palladino would say hold me tight

1796
01:27:23,410 --> 01:27:18,199
or I'll cheat you know when and when

1797
01:27:26,830 --> 01:27:23,420
they were when they were able to get her

1798
01:27:28,720 --> 01:27:26,840
under really really strict controls she

1799
01:27:31,180 --> 01:27:28,730
was still able to produce the phenomena

1800
01:27:33,819 --> 01:27:31,190
but if she could cheat she would to make

1801
01:27:37,509 --> 01:27:33,829
it easier for herself you know home is

1802
01:27:38,900 --> 01:27:37,519
one of the big enigmas of all time you

1803
01:27:41,660 --> 01:27:38,910
know he's really people

1804
01:27:43,820 --> 01:27:41,670
are you know to this day still pondering

1805
01:27:49,880 --> 01:27:43,830
his room as far as I know he was never

1806
01:27:54,230 --> 01:27:49,890
caught and then of course you had the

1807
01:27:56,360 --> 01:27:54,240
the great slate board phenomena where

1808
01:27:58,790 --> 01:27:56,370
they put a piece of chalk between two

1809
01:28:02,030 --> 01:27:58,800
police that the pieces of slate and ask

1810
01:28:04,490 --> 01:28:02,040
the spirit questions and it would answer

1811
01:28:08,450 --> 01:28:04,500
when they took away the slate you know

1812
01:28:09,830 --> 01:28:08,460
peel the slate uh-huh

1813
01:28:15,410 --> 01:28:09,840
maybe we need a slate board to

1814
01:28:18,680 --> 01:28:15,420
communicate well it was the same thing

1815
01:28:23,210 --> 01:28:18,690
with the with the spirit with the spirit

1816
01:28:25,190 --> 01:28:23,220
paintings where it the the canvas would

1817
01:28:27,290 --> 01:28:25,200
just within it seemed like a matter of

1818
01:28:29,270 --> 01:28:27,300
minutes would have these absolutely

1819
01:28:33,190 --> 01:28:29,280
glorious paintings on them and I think

1820
01:28:36,080 --> 01:28:33,200
Shannon actually has some photographs of

1821
01:28:39,620 --> 01:28:36,090
some of these examples and I taste

1822
01:28:42,010 --> 01:28:39,630
something if if these were cheating

1823
01:28:48,380 --> 01:28:42,020
whoever the artist was living or dead

1824
01:28:52,280 --> 01:28:48,390
they were absolutely excellent now in

1825
01:28:57,650 --> 01:28:52,290
the in the camp Chesterfield was that

1826
01:28:59,420 --> 01:28:57,660
the the one near you Tim yes camp they

1827
01:29:01,010 --> 01:28:59,430
have some of those paintings hanging oh

1828
01:29:03,920 --> 01:29:01,020
yes yeah they they have it they have it

1829
01:29:07,160 --> 01:29:03,930
just there absolutely glorious gallery

1830
01:29:12,010 --> 01:29:07,170
of some of these paintings that you know

1831
01:29:14,750 --> 01:29:12,020
go back you know for decades and we

1832
01:29:18,260 --> 01:29:14,760
remember a year or so ago we had a

1833
01:29:20,990 --> 01:29:18,270
couple on the exploring the bazaar here

1834
01:29:24,140 --> 01:29:21,000
that did they would set with their

1835
01:29:26,720 --> 01:29:24,150
people and do paintings and or

1836
01:29:29,510 --> 01:29:26,730
sketchings and when they showed them to

1837
01:29:33,170 --> 01:29:29,520
the individuals who were you know we're

1838
01:29:35,840 --> 01:29:33,180
there for a piece of art or psychic and

1839
01:29:37,910 --> 01:29:35,850
reading they would be remarkable

1840
01:29:39,860 --> 01:29:37,920
renderings of members of their family

1841
01:29:41,780 --> 01:29:39,870
who had passed away and I think that's

1842
01:29:44,020 --> 01:29:41,790
hard it kind of hard to cheat I mean you

1843
01:29:47,870 --> 01:29:44,030
might have somebody in the parking lot

1844
01:29:49,250 --> 01:29:47,880
taking down a license plates numbers and

1845
01:29:51,800 --> 01:29:49,260
getting Social Security numbers or

1846
01:29:53,050 --> 01:29:51,810
something like that but finding out what

1847
01:29:59,090 --> 01:29:53,060
your

1848
01:30:01,400 --> 01:29:59,100
uncle twice-removed look like who lived

1849
01:30:04,100 --> 01:30:01,410
a hundred years ago I would think it's a

1850
01:30:05,960 --> 01:30:04,110
little bit harder to do now Tim I want

1851
01:30:07,190 --> 01:30:05,970
to ask a less real quick before we run

1852
01:30:09,590 --> 01:30:07,200
out of time since we've been talking

1853
01:30:12,560 --> 01:30:09,600
about photography you know I know that

1854
01:30:16,280 --> 01:30:12,570
there have been some abductees who have

1855
01:30:17,960 --> 01:30:16,290
tried to film their abduction setting up

1856
01:30:20,450 --> 01:30:17,970
a camera in their bedrooms or anything

1857
01:30:24,140 --> 01:30:20,460
like that you know how do you know has

1858
01:30:27,650 --> 01:30:24,150
there been any you know success in these

1859
01:30:30,050 --> 01:30:27,660
attempts very little very little there

1860
01:30:32,890 --> 01:30:30,060
there have been photographs I've

1861
01:30:38,120 --> 01:30:32,900
received photographs from people

1862
01:30:41,150 --> 01:30:38,130
supposedly of the alien and it's hard to

1863
01:30:43,850 --> 01:30:41,160
discern well there was a you know and

1864
01:30:45,650 --> 01:30:43,860
there druffle whose react uppal of books

1865
01:30:47,960 --> 01:30:45,660
on the subject she had a administer

1866
01:30:52,160 --> 01:30:47,970
whose Bailey I think his name was boy

1867
01:30:55,610 --> 01:30:52,170
what a memory I have for this who had

1868
01:30:58,190 --> 01:30:55,620
the use of et types coming into his

1869
01:31:00,710 --> 01:30:58,200
bedroom at night and he didn't manage to

1870
01:31:03,710 --> 01:31:00,720
take a couple of photographs up against

1871
01:31:06,290 --> 01:31:03,720
the the shades you know to the air to

1872
01:31:08,720 --> 01:31:06,300
the outside they kind of look like hand

1873
01:31:12,680 --> 01:31:08,730
puppets to me but you can't say they

1874
01:31:14,540 --> 01:31:12,690
also resembled some of the figures that

1875
01:31:17,990 --> 01:31:14,550
were photographed and say you know

1876
01:31:20,810 --> 01:31:18,000
during the the seances so that's a

1877
01:31:22,490 --> 01:31:20,820
peculiar case right there that I'm

1878
01:31:26,150 --> 01:31:22,500
familiar with and then of course you get

1879
01:31:28,640 --> 01:31:26,160
a lot of these YouTube reports which are

1880
01:31:30,920 --> 01:31:28,650
totally impossible to verify of of

1881
01:31:33,890 --> 01:31:30,930
graves and aliens of one type or another

1882
01:31:35,420 --> 01:31:33,900
popping up in the doorway or coming out

1883
01:31:37,730 --> 01:31:35,430
from behind a telephone pole or

1884
01:31:41,120 --> 01:31:37,740
something like that right you get a lot

1885
01:31:44,480 --> 01:31:41,130
of people though that can actually draw

1886
01:31:48,680 --> 01:31:44,490
what they've seen which is a lot better

1887
01:31:53,360 --> 01:31:48,690
in most cases I was I was down in the

1888
01:31:56,870 --> 01:31:53,370
Gila Bend Arizona and out camping one

1889
01:31:59,630 --> 01:31:56,880
night with a couple of people and there

1890
01:32:02,240 --> 01:31:59,640
was a spectacular UFO sighting

1891
01:32:05,570 --> 01:32:02,250
we all had cameras I had a video camera

1892
01:32:09,260 --> 01:32:05,580
i we started to roll

1893
01:32:15,310 --> 01:32:09,270
and nothing showed up nothing showed up

1894
01:32:20,000 --> 01:32:15,320
in the film cameras or the video cameras

1895
01:32:23,510 --> 01:32:20,010
it was so frustrating one one was a blue

1896
01:32:26,690 --> 01:32:23,520
orb that just kind of meandered down

1897
01:32:28,880 --> 01:32:26,700
through this dry riverbed and then the

1898
01:32:32,450 --> 01:32:28,890
other one was like a bow tie

1899
01:32:34,400 --> 01:32:32,460
and it had yellow fringes around the

1900
01:32:37,850 --> 01:32:34,410
outside with a red middle and then it

1901
01:32:40,220 --> 01:32:37,860
would alternate to a red outside and a

1902
01:32:43,670 --> 01:32:40,230
yellow middle not I mean it was it was

1903
01:32:46,400 --> 01:32:43,680
spectacular and nothing I mean this

1904
01:32:48,710 --> 01:32:46,410
happens all the time where when you when

1905
01:32:53,900 --> 01:32:48,720
you're in a situation like that cameras

1906
01:32:56,960 --> 01:32:53,910
don't work we don't know why all right

1907
01:32:59,300 --> 01:32:56,970
well let's and Shannon we are down to

1908
01:33:02,480 --> 01:32:59,310
the last few minutes of our program so I

1909
01:33:05,930 --> 01:33:02,490
want to let everybody know a little bit

1910
01:33:07,940 --> 01:33:05,940
more about where they can visit website

1911
01:33:11,270 --> 01:33:07,950
found out more about you Shannon do you

1912
01:33:12,140 --> 01:33:11,280
want to start yes I have a website it's

1913
01:33:16,550 --> 01:33:12,150
my name

1914
01:33:18,590 --> 01:33:16,560
Shannon Taggart comm ta GGA RT and it

1915
01:33:21,650 --> 01:33:18,600
the whole entire site is dedicated to my

1916
01:33:24,530 --> 01:33:21,660
forthcoming book which is being

1917
01:33:27,140 --> 01:33:24,540
published by a crowdfunding publisher so

1918
01:33:30,050 --> 01:33:27,150
it's on presale and I'm about halfway

1919
01:33:32,420 --> 01:33:30,060
there and I need to sell you know a few

1920
01:33:35,300 --> 01:33:32,430
more copies to get it into production

1921
01:33:38,870 --> 01:33:35,310
but when it comes out it's going to be

1922
01:33:41,540 --> 01:33:38,880
lavishly Illustrated 350 pages of

1923
01:33:44,000 --> 01:33:41,550
full-color foreword by dan Aykroyd and

1924
01:33:45,740 --> 01:33:44,010
everybody who buys it via this pre-sale

1925
01:33:49,910 --> 01:33:45,750
will have their name listed inside as a

1926
01:33:52,910 --> 01:33:49,920
patron hey do you do a gallery or

1927
01:33:55,100 --> 01:33:52,920
showings yes I do do gallery shows I'm

1928
01:33:58,730 --> 01:33:55,110
actually going to be in a photo festival

1929
01:34:03,830 --> 01:33:58,740
in Uruguay in April and they in Brooklyn

1930
01:34:05,660 --> 01:34:03,840
so I could go yeah they're gonna print

1931
01:34:07,690 --> 01:34:05,670
the images seven feet tall and hang them

1932
01:34:10,400 --> 01:34:07,700
in the city so I'll have some of that

1933
01:34:12,730 --> 01:34:10,410
look what I've had if you order the book

1934
01:34:16,220 --> 01:34:12,740
I'm gonna be sending that out soon

1935
01:34:18,950 --> 01:34:16,230
wonderful and unless a down down to you

1936
01:34:21,200 --> 01:34:18,960
here where there are a look on to you

1937
01:34:24,709 --> 01:34:21,210
take a look at our website at opus

1938
01:34:29,450 --> 01:34:24,719
network that's Opie us Network that's

1939
01:34:32,390 --> 01:34:29,460
one word dot org and you can contact us

1940
01:34:36,050 --> 01:34:32,400
there we have an area where you can just

1941
01:34:38,270 --> 01:34:36,060
you know ask questions and you know fill

1942
01:34:40,820 --> 01:34:38,280
out the request to you know be in the

1943
01:34:42,500 --> 01:34:40,830
support group if you if you want to and

1944
01:34:45,500 --> 01:34:42,510
then I usually follow up and talk to

1945
01:34:46,760 --> 01:34:45,510
these people to make sure that we're

1946
01:34:50,030 --> 01:34:46,770
doing the right thing for them and

1947
01:34:53,540 --> 01:34:50,040
that's very effective well Tim I think

1948
01:34:56,270 --> 01:34:53,550
we had a very enlightening to show this

1949
01:34:59,840 --> 01:34:56,280
evening I know there were skeptics among

1950
01:35:02,420 --> 01:34:59,850
our ranks who said oh you know how could

1951
01:35:04,550 --> 01:35:02,430
you tie in you know the work of these

1952
01:35:06,110 --> 01:35:04,560
two individuals it's totally unrelated

1953
01:35:09,830 --> 01:35:06,120
well once again

1954
01:35:13,790 --> 01:35:09,840
we here as host of exploring the bizarre

1955
01:35:16,430 --> 01:35:13,800
had through them totally wrong anyway we

1956
01:35:17,930 --> 01:35:16,440
will be a of course archived in the next

1957
01:35:20,780 --> 01:35:17,940
couple of hours for people who want to

1958
01:35:23,420 --> 01:35:20,790
hear the show again and it's a must-do

1959
01:35:28,360 --> 01:35:23,430
and of course our YouTube channel is mr.

1960
01:35:31,310 --> 01:35:28,370
UFO secret file we've got almost 200

1961
01:35:33,860 --> 01:35:31,320
videos up there now and it's a wonderful

1962
01:35:35,959 --> 01:35:33,870
place to go and spend all your time

1963
01:35:39,020 --> 01:35:35,969
before you buy a couple of books from us

1964
01:35:41,720 --> 01:35:39,030
Tim good evening and we will see you all

1965
01:35:45,830 --> 01:35:41,730
the next week same time same place case

1966
01:35:48,800 --> 01:35:45,840
cor Thank You Tina Thank You Carol

1967
01:35:54,689 --> 01:35:48,810
thank you one at all and in particular

1968
01:36:01,080 --> 01:35:57,089
you've been listening to exploring the

1969
01:36:04,319 --> 01:36:01,090
bazaar with hosts Timothy Beckley and to

1970
01:36:06,870 --> 01:36:04,329
Swartz they're taking back the night by

1971
01:36:09,779 --> 01:36:06,880
jetting non-stop across the cosmos in

1972
01:36:13,399 --> 01:36:09,789
search of the truly bizarre and totally

1973
01:36:16,100 --> 01:36:13,409
unexplained with you as their combines

1974
01:36:20,580 --> 01:36:16,110
Thursday nights at 7:00 p.m. Pacific

1975
01:36:21,380 --> 01:36:20,590
10:00 p.m. Eastern on the K cor digital

1976
01:36:24,240 --> 01:36:21,390
radio

1977
01:36:27,690 --> 01:36:24,250
for more information on exploring the

1978
01:36:30,540 --> 01:36:27,700
bazaars and hosts Timothy Becca and Tim

1979
01:36:33,660 --> 01:36:30,550
Swartz check out their kco our digital

1980
01:36:39,870 --> 01:36:33,670
radio network follow their YouTube

1981
01:36:50,280 --> 01:36:39,880
channel @m r UFO 1100 explore the